I'd totally go with this - aren't there tanks with walker somewhere just to confer move through cover without inventing a new ability? It would neatly cover a possible effect of the masks if it was deemed necessary.

Well walker allows rerolls on the failed dangerous terrain tests which could in theory account for their greater agility but not sure how the Mask comes into that one

For INF that'd just make them better able to negotiate rivers and marshes IIRC

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Just read what I wrote, wasn't clear at all. I'm not saying to give them walker - that would be dumb!

All I'm saying is that there's precedent for abilities being used to confer their effects despite the actual name of the ability not being appropriate. Tanks can't "walk" so banshees don't necessarily have to be "infiltrators" to gain the same effect if there's another reason it would be appropriate. That's all I'm saying.

Ahhhh ok mate! Yeah... What Alf O'Mega said!

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If we don't go with inf-MW for Banshees I would definitely like to see either 20cm move or infiltrate for them (I don't mind too much which). Infiltrate would make sense to me; their howl could stun their enemies as they pass, while the leap and weave through them to go for the most important targets.

I'm in favour of adopting the Epic-UK Exarch stats too, it makes sense for the Exarch to have the relevant advantage of their aspect.

Yes, infiltrate seems really good fluffwise.

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The howl from the mask is designed to incapacitate an opponent, but it doesn't technically paralyse them for very long, their senses are just overloaded to such an extent that they can't adequately move or defend themselves, so the paralysis is temporary at best. I don't think that the infiltrate rule reflects that very well. I think that it's simply too good for them.

The whole idea behind the attack is that it gives Banshees the chance to strike down the opponent which they have engaged before being struck themselves. That's what it's designed to do. It's not meant as a process through which Banshees can just skip through a formation to engage the next opponent. Yes, they're acrobatic, and can jump around, but that doesn't justify the speed which they would be awarded by the infiltrate rule.

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Just to be clear, I am suggesting adding both 20cm *and* Infiltrate.

And Irisado, I agree that this does more than the "fluff" suggests, possibly excessively so. However, the point is that these boosts would be representative of their mobility, and we all agree the HBs need some form of significant boost to make them more useful.

Personally I don't agree that 'fluff' disagrees with banshees having infiltrate, banshees have always been among the fastest infantry in 40k and the psychic howl is well represented by a combination of first strike and infiltrate, think of it as a combination of the shocking charge roughriders have and the acrobatics they're reknowned for......I mean how is infiltrate justifed on the slower, more cumbersome marine scouts from a fluff POV?

I will clarify that I think they'd be fine with cc2+ and an exarch with first strike, infiltrate is a tried and tested rule

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I think that the way in which the rule has been applied outside of the Eldar list isn't the critical factor. The important thing is to whether it's a suitable rule for the Howling Banshees, and I remain sceptical for all my previously stated reasons.

I just don't think that we're ever going to find a proposal to fix them that's acceptable to a wide enough range of the EA Eldar players out there for it to be worth the hassle of continuing to debate it. We've all been down this road (i.e. debating possible changes) so many times before that I see no outcome other than keeping the status quo.

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This doesn't make sense, it sounds like you're cherry picking here. If all of the infiltrating units outside of the Eldar list were sneaky, then you'd be the first to point how that supported your opinion. And yet because your "previously stated reasons" are about fluff, all of a sudden precedents from elsewhere are not important. What people are saying in this thread is that they do think the rule is suitable for the Howling Banshees because its in-game effect reflects their character. It sounds more like to me that you always have a default position of "don't change it", and you suffer from a classic ascertainment bias in the evidence you consider (i.e. the tendency to apply more weight to the evidence that supports your pre-existing position, and look for flaws in the evidence that contradicts it). Everybody does it, but it's useful for one to be aware of that fact.

As I've said before, I myself am certainly not in favour of changing things all the time, for example the desire to change lists whenever GW introduces a new product unit. But, and please don't take offence, it honestly is a little bit tiresome by now to hear you repeat the same negativity over and over. Perhaps it is useful for you to bear in mind that, for people who do actually play the game, it is quite frustrating to have units that aren't very good. I think it's worth you bearing in mind that the reason why you don't want to change anything is because you don't actually have to play the game as it is. The people who do want change don't want it just to annoy you, they simply want to change things for the better. Like I said earlier in the thread, personally I have come to accept that there are always going to be some aspects more likely to be chosen than others. But that doesn't mean I must object to any attempt to try to improve a unit, so long as it doesn't cause problems elsewhere. None of us can claim that our point of view is a shining example to the unwashed masses, tiresome as they are in their inability to yield to its inevitability.

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I'm simply agreeing with the point that Spectrar Ghost made earlier on when he agreed with me about having had this debate too many times without being able to reach a conclusion. If infiltrate were the great fix that some feel that it would be, then it would have been implemented in the preceding years when we've had this discussion on many previous occasions. It's not as though this is a new idea which hasn't been discussed before, and that's why I get fed up with these constant discussions for change, because they're not new. They take place every cycle and seem very counter productive to me.

Regarding the comment about people who actually play, I'd take that comment on board if new ideas were being discussed, but they aren't. This debate is identical to the ones which took place when I was playing, so I feel that it's perfectly reasonable for me to give my input.

Building on this comment all those of you who keep wanting to change things also fail to see things from the other side. One of the biggest turn offs, in my opinion, regarding 40K is the constant rule changes. EA has far superior balance, yet still people keep wanting to change things. Why? The system is not broken, most things work very well or well enough, so why do we keep having these debates? It doesn't help that we don't play to one set of rules either, and we have all this fragmentation within the Epic community, but to keep then changing the rules as well just makes all this even worse. I just cannot, and I say this sadness not anger, understand why those of you who play regularly don't seem to be able to see that.

Finally, on the specific point about Howling Banshees, I agree with all of you that the unit isn't very good and doesn't work very well. That's not the issue. In fact, it's one of the few units which does need fixing. The reason why I don't support the changes being suggested is that I can't see a suitable fix either in terms of rules or background. All of you are free to disagree with me on this point, and I'm sure that you'll continue to do so, but that's my view, and unless someone comes along with a truly inspired idea with play testing evidence to back it up, I don't think that I'll change my position. I'm sorry.

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Hi guys!

I am a bit confused. I played versus Eldar the other day. We usually play with the lists from the NetEA compendium.

Now I find this threat going on for a list that supposedly was already approved and should be fine the way it is.

I don't get this. What is the point? Or is this just an attempt to tweak the list in a way you want it to be, independent from the originally approved list? Then I'd suggest giving it a differnet name to avoid confusion.

cheers,

Small changes can be made to approved lists, there were several to the SM list in 2012 for example.

The changes discussed here are about fixing up underpowered units that are competitively not worth it at the moment, perhaps for inclusion in next year's tournament pack and compendium if they get tested enough.

Approved doesn't mean never touched. It means widely tested and shown to be meet a level of balance that is considered appropriate for use in a competitive environment (e.g. Tourney). It doesn't mean that over time issues or holes cannot be found to exploit combinations and scenarios never thought of. When potential identified or noted that units turn out to not really perform, testing can occur on tweaks. If they pan out and see widespread testing and confirmation then they may see approval for competitive approval. Until (and IF) that occurs the official version remains the approved one.

I should point out the discussion going on in Marine development with the oldest list, Codex Marines, involving 13 scouts and a titan. This list has been poked at and used more than any other in EA and that has come up only after this many years so to think that it doesn't happen is unrealistic.

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