I'm not really sure where all the TK D3 attacks for the Moray came from (Jstr put it up as a proposal but it was never play tested like this and never used in the original testing like this) but they were not present in the original Moray that took a while to work out.

The original Moray looked like this (quoted again from earlier in this thread):


A 90cm TK D3 Moray is worth more than 300pts.
I really would prefer to see the original back in use. The Moray has never had TK attacks and that should probably stay with the Manta. It's not a flying Shadowsword (see AX-1-0) but more a Warhound equivalent.

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Thanks for the feedback Onyx. I'll wait until I've had a chance to do some comparitive maths before answering.

I would say from a pure stats point of view I certainly prefer the Moray that Onyx is listing. I think it makes the Moray a more distinct vehicle and keeps the long range TK as unique to the Manta.

Don't really have a strong opinion on it though. If the list designers think 90cm TK is fine on the Moray as long as the points cost is correct it's up to them.

The table below shows the average amount of kills/wounds caused by the three variants of the Moray's stats discussed in this thread. The Super Heavy Tank column shows average hull points destroyed rather than vehicles.

To standardise results, this shows damage caused by 8 of the version of the Moray version Onyx posted early in the thread (cost 2400), 7 Flo'ka Moray (cost 2450) and 8 Vior'la Moray (cost 2400). (I labelled it Onyx Manta by accident )

Because this is just for internal balance, it uses raw stats (without affect of sustain, movement and markerlights)
The best choices against particular targets are highlighted in red, good choices highlighted in orange. Weapons with the ability to engage at long range (75cm+) are obviously superior choices to the average 45cm.





Conclusions:
The old proposed Moray (championed by Onyx) is best vs Guard, Marines, Predators and LV. Joint best vs Russes (4+RA) and good vs Terminators
The FloKa version (Dobbsy) is best vs terminators, and good vs all other targets
The Vior'la version (Matt) Is best vs Super Heavy Tanks and joint best vs Leman Russes, while inferior vs all other targets
While it wasn't a subject of the test, the Manta is comparitively weak vs all targets when its price is factored in. (if it's the lists super heavy killer, then 2,600 pts worth of Manta kills about 8 HP of SHT, while 2000 pts of Shadowswords (15) kill about 20 HP, for example)

The reason for the version of the stats I have been trialling on the Moray are because my opinion at this time is that Tau are excellent vs Infantry, moderate vs tanks, and weak vs reinforced armour and super heavies due to reliance on shooting without the back-up plan of assault most armies use to clear armour.

If that is the role the Moray is to fill, the chart backs up the idea that the Vior'la version does it best since it is (slightly) better vs tanks and SHT than the other two, and worse vs everything else. The rest of the Tau list is good vs 'everything else'

The question then is whether that is the correct role for the Moray or whether it is intended to be more of a multi-role generalist War Engine, in which case one of the other stat lines would probably serve it better - probably the one Onyx posted.

I'll try compare it to the damage out put per point spent of some of the common WE since I anticipate that question coming up.

In the meantime, opinions are welcome!

Nice looking and informative stats (don't worry yme-loc, Matt is one of our regular players and we can discuss this freely).

First up though I'd rather you called the Onyx Moray just the (approved/playtested) original Moray.
It's not my design. It was a culmination of a long discussion with every man and his dog having a say. These stats were eventually agreed by just about everyone as being good.

I know you didn't include markerlights but if you had, the original Moray would have had double the Seeker Missile shots of the other 2 proposals (not particularly helping with war engines but notable).

The Moray was never used as a dedicated War Engine hunter. It was always a muti-role support vehicle. The AX-1-0, Hero Cruiser and the Manta were the tools for dealing with War Engines (Tau already have more access to TK than Marines). 3 morays parked on the other side of the table would be a no-brainer with 90cm TK attacks.

All this started by jstr's wishful thinking in 1 thread...

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Might wanna take this discussion to a Moray thread.

Fair point - sorry mate.

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I have split this off into a seperate Moray topic.

Thanks.

I had a chance to playtest the Moray again using the old stat line (the one I referred to as posted by Onyx in the spreadsheet for quick reference; not to imply he wrote it). I'll post some notes and photos when I have a chance.

I ran the Moray in about half a dozen games over the last few weeks, using the old profile Onyx posted (2xMacro rather than 1xTK).

I can post the maths and kill rates if anyone would like, but to make a long story short the old version performed best against all targets except Titans, with or without markerlights, and at ranges over both below and above 30cm.

The one I was proposing (labelled Vior'la Moray in the chart above) was less powerful against all targets except Reinforced Armour (equal) and Titans (where it causes more damage due to TK D3 rolls averaging 2 wounds).

As mentioned I think that it's in the super heavy and reinforced area that Tau need the most help to maintain a position as a top-tier shooting army, and the old Moray isn't likely to be competitive with the AX-1-0s for that role. However, Steve has been extremely helpful throughout the testing process so I can't ignore his feedback in favour of the old Macro version, so the simplest thing to do is to not force the Moray to compete with AX-1-0s at all by putting it in Support rather than Air so it isn't taking points from the same limited pool.

And that should do it! If it's not a matter of picking between Moray and AX-1-0, it has far more of a justifiable role.

I agree that I wouldn't bring both of these rather expensive formations (in a 3000 pts list at least) that has kind of the same purpose. In my experience it's good for Tau to have at least 10-11 activations and that would be a lot of points.

I don't think changing it to support will make a big difference though. I'd rather see it stay in the WE/aircraft section.

Support slots are usually not a problem when doing a Tau list on the one hand so that's not a problem, but I don't think it's necessary either. The WE/aircraft-only-a-third-of-the-points isn't really a problem for Tau (in my experience), only really becomes important if one brings a Manta. And anyone who does bring a Manta probably don't want both Moray and AX-1-0 as well. One could even bring both formations and then take a barracuda and a sun shark formation in a standard 3000 pts game.

I think your Moray compares well with the AX-1-0. Yeah it has only one TK attack, but it comes in cheaper (half a reacon formation) and is a lot more durable.

True, but it's not the version currently in the list; I dropped it for the 2x Macro one Onyx recommended.

If the Moray isn't TK, a Tau player who wants to tackle titans is very likely to go for the AX-1-0; it's common sense list design. The Vior'la list also has more expensive orcas, Sunshark bombers and a more expensive fighter choice so the 33% air allowance gets taken up pretty quickly.

Not having the Moray share the same slot on the chart makes it a more viable option so that players are more likely to dust the model off and actually use it. If the Moray had the TK gun it could be a viable alternative in the air slot.

IMHO after making dozens of 3000pt lists with these versions, with Macro its better off being treated as a WE Skimmer rather than Air if it actually wants to be on the table, so that's where it will be for V1 of the developmental list and we'll see what feedback is like.

I did not propose any stats for the Moray. Ever. And I dislike the tone and resent the implications of your quote. The TK version came from an early version 3 or late version 2 list which was the current version when I started playing Tau. I think Cybershadow was list champion then. It was an OTT stat line which was very point and click and open to abuse. That was why it was cut when E&C, Zombo and I started preliminary playtesting of the E&C revisions.

I still really dislike the idea of the Moray. It seems completely contrary to the direction GW seems to be taking the Tau in (actually so do the current Manta stats). If we wanted to keep one of the fan invented units I'd much rather have the scorpion fish as it seems to be much more in line with GW's vision which, no matter what you might think about GW as an organization today, is still what we should use as a base for designing lists.

I am interested. Could you be more specific into why the Moray is not GW-style material. I dont have an opinion on the matter except that., indeed, there is no such thing as a Moray in GW, and yes we should definitely try to inspire ourselves with 40k imho.

Also, what is your point of view on the Manta?

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Just for clarity, here's the quote from Jstr19 with regard to the Moray stats which the recent version is based on:

I also agree with E&C's following quote regarding these proposed stats:

Like it or not, this post in the Tau Fio'Ka Armoured Strike Force v 0.1 thread is the base for the proposed new version which is overpowered.

It really should not be a TK weapon platform. It wasn't meant to be a hovering Shadowsword but more a jack of all trades Warhound equivalent.

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