at first glance I can get behind this I believe. Need to think it out totally but sounds reasonable.

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On paper yes, but I've lost count of the number of times I've lost tanks to unexpected criticals makes me think that in practice this isn't reliable....

Also against stuff like deathstrikes/shadowswords they're very much more vulnerable (as is the intention of the rules I imagine) as 1 shot can take out 1 russ maximum, but can blow up a 3rd of your SHT company

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But by resistance to attrition, I believe he means that their power does not deteriorate as quickly to shooting and losses. Rather than survivability, which russes are superior for.

I you lose 1 Russ to shooting, the shooting power of the formation is degraded by 30% whereas 1 DC does not have any such effect. Of course crits can occur but it is a marked difference.

Attrition is the big problem with russes - they have a lot of firepower but it is packed onto the same units.

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I was saying that a lucky crit removes 1/3 of your firepower permanently, as well as suppressing a second tank

In general, they are more resistant, a few BMs does not suppress any, but they tend to decrease in big jumps!

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IMHO issues with Artillery Company and Artillery Battery is perhaps not only point-wise, but also concerns balance among the variants.
Bombard is ultimate siege unit. Manticore is excellent BM piler. But what does the Basilisk do?
Retains chimera armor. Normal shoot every round*. Direct fire ability with simple AP/ATs, with a better AT value compared to barrage.

*And here is the problem. Even with chimera armor, the whole artillery formation is very fragile, and usually won't survive TURN 1-2. So in reality it doesn't matter if the formation has slow firing or even one shot, disadvantage beacuse it will not get a chance (against potent opponent) to use up firepower every round.

I think it is only the Basilisk that should become cheaper. (Company 550, Battery 225)
While the Manticore Company would do fine for 600, and Manticore / Bombard Battery for 250.

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It's got roughly the firepower of 2 x Leman Russ, whilst costing more than 3 and being slower. Having all the advantages of a war engine should have an added cost, but they're still over costed at 200 points at the moment.

As far as I'm concerned, Manitcores are better than Basilisks, and the fact that Steel Legion are one of the few lists that can field them instead of Basilisks is one of their main draws.

I have to agree that manticores are generally better than basilisks, I love my basilisks, but after 30-40 games using them I have to say that manticores are simply a better choice, the buff in save from 6+ to 5+ is pretty negligible, and a 2BP disrupt barrage is only slightly worse than a standard 3BP barrage in my experience

the only advantage basilisks have is the ability to direct fire, which is highly situational and is more of a slight bonus than a real advantage anyway

most people will go after artillery early on, so the reduced hitting power of the basilisks doesn't tend to keep them safe in comparison to manticores, so if you're only gonna get one shot, might as well make it a big one!

I'd never take a singleton baneblade over a shadowsword either.....

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I find reducing the arty company to 500 points a more radical option than reducing the base amount of units it contains, with the option of more.

Concerning the Baneblade, it has more firepower that 2 russes, and is more resilient to attrition. It also is always Fearless and Insipiring, which must be taken into account. It is also cheaper than 3 Russes, as they come up to 225 pts. (They are 400 for six, only with the multiples discount of 50 which applies to all guard formation with 2 platoons). Finally, the Baneblade is not a fair comparison to three Russes, as they do not compete for the same army slots. LR cannot be chosen as support formations, and the Baneblade company is much cheaper than the LR company (which is a really good BTS, though unwieldy).

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Concerning Artillery batteries, I think that disrupt should go from the manticore, and the price for the battery go down to 225.

If no change to the manticore is done, then just reduce the price of the other two to 225 for 3.

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Yes, artillery companies are clearly victims of the barrage table. BP 3 is the primary "minimum unit", and the major sweet spots are at 4 and 8 with minor ones at 6 and 10. And the diminishing returns get worse after 10 BP, where adding a unit or two can add literally nothing to the firepower of the formation. Since the additional benefits of adding units are quite small, basilisks become even less relevant because you might as well just take extra manticores so you can fire them every turn. TBH even if the basilisk had 2 BP it would struggle in larger formation sizes.

In reality, I think once you have more than 8 BP in the formation, they need to be at a big discount - a nominal cost. Even then, there is simply no room for an expensive support formation in a tournament-sized list, i.e. one that is no good as a BTS, a juicy target, won't be taking objectives etc. Given that you pretty much have to take a 500 point SC formation, to then have to take another big BTS formation > 650 points just isn't feasible in most lists given all the other stuff it is necessary to include (e.g. ~ 500 points or more of air cover). That means that, IMO, decreasing the cost won't work until it gets down to 500 points, and at that point it is probably too cheap.

On the other hand, reducing the formation size is very likely to work in seeing the formation hit the table. But still I don't think it will help the basilisk much. At 6 units I would probably take 6 manticores (firing either 3 per turn or 4/2), or maybe even a mix of manticore and bombard (if the list allowed it, that is). There is literally no advantage for barrage in me taking 6 basilisks instead. All of the other benefits of basilisks don't (IMO) synergise well with the formation's primary mode of action.

I think if there is really motivation to fix artillery, then it will necessitate reducing the company size, plus splitting them out by unit type so they can be given different points costs, e.g.
3x manticore = 250, 6x = 425
3x bombard = 225
3x basilisk = 225, 6x = 375

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twice 'barely' is still 'not very'



IMO bombards are still sub-optimal even at 225.... although 200 is probably too cheap....



Agreed on shadowsword, not so much on sentinels, and I've never found unmounted stormtroopers effective at all....

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