For what it is worth, allowing a character to grant abilities to the entire formation is significantly different to other characters / lists where the benefit usually only applies to the unit in which the character is located.

I also really like the possibility of adding multiple characters to confer a wider set of abilities - at a price - which seems to fit the interpretation of the 'fluff' that distinguishes elite troops from the ordinary IG defence formations. So far, we seem to be considering adding separate characters to confer Invulnerable save, Thick Rear armour Walker or Fearless for defensive boosts (like Omnisiah ), or possibly a shooting range boost, Inspiring etc as offensive boosts. (Perhaps even having a leader change the initiative to 1+ though that may be a step too far . . . ). I am sure there are other abilities that might be considered and equally that some of the abilities could be combined in a single character.

Costing becomes a slight issue, the obvious starting point is +25 per character and it has already been suggested that the relevant formations be reduced to match standard IG costings - not least because these already represent the 'standard' IG pricings. However it seems that the original intention of the list was for smaller 'elite' style formations. Would it be appropriate to start with a small formation and allow the player to add units as well as characters (as others have already suggested)? For example
(These costs are purely illustrative!):-

EpicUK Ulani have a tank commander upgrade which gives the formation +1 to initiative rolls for doubling. That's kinda similar. Various Chaos lists also have character upgrades which give formation level benefits like demonic summoning, demonic focus or augmented summoning.

the above are kinda similar.

really, really silly idea

- destroyed tanks are placed in a repair pool and can be 'summoned' back to their original formation + 1 BM.
Each Enginseer generates a summoning point on a 4+ dice roll in the rally phase. WE require a base summoning point + 1 more for each DC they return with.

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Fine, since no one else has a problem with it we can just use leader combined with the 6+ invulnerable save as the base rule.

Mechanicus Gifts
One character per 500 points must be assigned to any non allied formations in your list. You may use one character type from the following list:

Blessings of the Omnissiah:
A techpriest gifted in mending tortured machine spirits is assigned to the formation granting the formation a 6+ invulnerable save.
Free

Central Targeting Cogitators:
X Points

Something defensive....
X Points

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-Vaaish

Great!!

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Thinking further on this, Each chracter option would entirely replace the current character and you'd select one character type for the whole army.

Central Targeting Cogitators:
What about for the offensive version we allow the formation to place an extra BM when firing at a enemy formation. So instead of +1bm for coming under fire, it lets them put 2 bm down. Maybe also allow the unit the character is assigned to to have sniper.

Enhanced Auger Relays:
Gives all units in the formation thick rear armor rule. Maybe allow you to reassign the position of an orbital bombardment too or give you walker.

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-Vaaish

Hmmm... Not to sold on the BM idea. I like the sniper alternative though. Maybe give ML ability to the tank e CH is riding and as long as it's alive every other tank in the formation get +1 to hit. Or is this a Tau exclusive thingy?

To change a orbital bombardement is a little too good. But TRA and walker sounds good!

I really like where this is going!

I kinda want to start collecting this army right away. do we know what units for sure will be in the list yet? :-)

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so discussion seems to have dropped off from where we were, anyone have thoughts on the other bits of the rule? If not I'll put the alternate upgrades on hold for now and just go with the base blessing rule initially.

From here I'd like to move on to discussions about the dropship, specifically changing the devourer to the Tetrarch heavy Lander. I've put some rough point costs and stats in the second post based around the general look of the OOP dropship which seems a similar pattern of Tetrarch.

Modoten, I would recommend holding off collecting at this point. We haven't even finished hammering out a basic list to move into the testing phases yet so the list can still be subject to some heavy changes as time goes on.

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-Vaaish

Maybe your looking for the opinions of others but i´ll write anyway.

With the characters a ithink that you could always have the Leader ability included. It will be needed to make sure the small formations don´t break to easily. I think 1 offensive option (sniper for the whole formation, or ML for it), 1 defensive option (thick rear armour and /or Inv save) and a general option (walker ability, maybe +5cm move) is enough to choose from.
But leader should be included on all of the characters.

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I like the idea of the dropship alot! And stats looks good to me. Haven't been involved in E:a lists development before so i can't really contribute that much.
But as I said before, personally i don´t mind if this lists is not that exotic. To me it works fine as a tank list similiar to the IG ones with maybe 1 or 2 exotic formations. I think the drop ship fills that slot good!

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I'm not looking for anyone in particular; I'm mainly trying to get people talking again.

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-Vaaish

I think mord's suggestions are sensible, either have all the characters provide leader or have it as a 'spirit stones' type formation ability, then one offensive, one defensive and one utility option, kinda like marine characters

my 2 cents

offensive option - unit gains bonus to sustain fire action, or can sustain fire and move a small amount, something like that
defensive - TRA or invulnerable save is fine, I'd go for INV personally, representing added forcefields etc
utility - walker, first strike, something like that

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I like the char suggestion as well. I'm keen on walker for utility upgrade.

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We can use walker for that then. I'm less sure of the others. How about this:

Base: Leader and Invulnerable

Offense: Character Sniper, Inspiring and ?

Defensive: Leader and Thick Rear Armor

Utility: Walker and Invulnerable

Offensive: I don't think we should change a core action so much as such no movement when sustaining. Actually, due to the nature of sustain (no movment) it's always felt a bit more defensive due to the movement restriction. I also don't think we need to give the entire formation sniper. It should be enough just to give it to the character's unit. There's potential for sniper baneblades, shadowswords, valdors, and russes. All have powerful weapons and can easily neutralize whatever unit they decided to put the attack on. A whole formation of that seems a bit silly.

I'd also like to see the leader function come through a bit more sparingly. We need trade offs too not just outright bonuses. Leader is a perfect example. You can hit harder but without leader you are easier to suppress. Hopefully it makes a player think more about what he takes rather than just using whatever gives the most raw firepower.

The biggest issue I see is that with the existing specialist options there just aren't any that work as offensive options and don't overlap existing weapons. Most of the means by which we can make the unit more attack oriented also seem too over the top or change core rules I'd rather not mess with.

eg. Remove the -1 penalty for doubling and allow units to fire with -1 when tripling would be a nice boost offensively but at the same time it modifies two core actions and makes the standard move redundant. Allowing a +1 to hit is also a nice option, but it interferes with the sustain action. Giving them things like First Strike also seems a bit odd since most of the units have poor FF and CC capability. Extra attacks seems like it could work, but again it's a bit counter-intuitive since the list is weak in CC and FF and granting EA encourages assaults.

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-Vaaish

how about utility giving void shield(s) to the vehicle he's mounted in? I reckon that would be a nice upgrade, especially in line with the big mek upgrades....

IMO formation should come with command tank with leader as standard

then add a techpriest character to any stand, providing one of the following: vehicle gains 1 45cm MW4+ shot, OR 1-2 void shields, OR formation gains walker ability/or INV save

I dislike the TRA for some reason... just spitballing here of course

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Maybe one of the upgrades could be to allow shoot then move like the eldar lists? That seems rather offensive related to me. (just spitballing here). That shouldn't be some destabilizing ability, after all that's the bread and butter of Eldar and they're relatively balanced. Call it tactical cogitators or something fun like that.

Not sure what you mean by "character sniper" here. I assume it means the character stand gains sniper and not some new special ability to target opposing characters. I agree that any type of high power upgrade can be applied but should be limited to the CH stand itself (IS, EA, etc) as is already the precedent and basic pattern.

I don't understand the hesitation around leader but I'm cool to test without.

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