This would mean seeing more nightwings squadrons in the game. I prefer seeing 1 nightwing squadron at 300 points than 2 for 400 points...



Phoenix Bomber is the best bomber in the game:
- resolve bombs drop in the movement phase (so it can target thinks behind buildings adding the shoot the thin parts tsm bonus)
- fire at 75cm with volcano like weapons at high altitude (shoot your heavy tanks at tsm -4 while you can't shot at it as it's too far)

And if you take in consideration that eldar have the best AA unit in the game with the firestorm and that Phantom/warlock titan have access to the Flamewing AA wing (that always in ff despite titan order so it can snap fire at your flyers even if the titan is on advance order) and the fact that you rarely see dogfights in the game, 300 points is correct.
Check in the Chaos Codex, Firelord cost 300 and it's not as good as the phoenix bomber. Also, check the Hell Talon bomber and Phoenix is way better (but Chaos Player usually never pick a 350 points HellTalon, it's pure crap).

Sounds to me that either the cost of the Phoenix needs to be increased, or the cost of the others needs to be decreased. Or both.

This is exactly why we should have a comprehensive point determination system that applies across the whole game.

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Hi!

Preaching to the choir bro!

But if you remember our little poll back some weeks, there's a half and half split on that.

Of course it would not take much to convince me to create an alternate points cost system for those whom wish it.

Hint, hint, wink, wink....

Primarch

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Hi!

Well I seriously FUBAR'ed the play test then. I brought 3 phoenix bombers for 300 points.

No wonder the IG got plastered.

I agree to leave the cost of flyers as is. They are POWERFUL. If anything there is an argument for making them more costly.

Primarch

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Such things are great in theory, but the problem is that such systems are impossible to achieve in reality. Beyond the overall complexity of such a system if it tries to take into account everything it needs to, there are simply some variables that are outside of the game designer's control. Amount and type of terrain, game size, table size, etc... all of these things can dramatically alter the worth of various elements and the best the designers (i.e., us) can do is offer recommendations.

Systems like that are a fantastic STARTING point for figuring out point values, as long as it is clearly understood that sometimes things may occasionally need to be adjusted to fit the reality instead of conforming to the theory.

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Once Upon a Midnight Dreary....

I'm afraid that I'm going to have to withdraw my proof reading offer. Every time I think that I've found time to do it, something else comes up on another forum, or in my PhD work, so it's never going to get done at this rate. I'm very sorry about this. I'll continue participating in rules debates whenever possible.

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It is most definitely not impossible, otherwise no unit would have a fixed point cost. Besides, one does not alter the cost of one's army after the terrain is decided on and placed. That would be unfair to both parties. All that can be done is to have modifiers based on how the unit interacts with various terrain types. For example, while Infantry can enter buildings, Vehicles cannot, so Infantry might have a cost modifier based on that (and other factors).

In this case, it should be reasonably feasible (though likely not simple) to do, as we would be (primarily) reverse-engineering an existing points system. Any reasonable system that is developed should return unit values similar to current values in most cases. Really the main point of doing so, in my view, is to ensure that units of identical power and utility have comparable point costs, and not widely divergent ones like the Phoenix and Hell Talon. I suppose this could be done without developing a point system as such, but we'd have to lose the mindset of only comparing values of things within Factions and look at units across Factions. As, generally speaking, the same Faction does not fight only itself.

As to there being a half and half split, that's not quite accurate. Eight people voted, with 5 in favor. That is 62.5% in favor. Definitely a majority. Not a great poll size, but still a majority. Perhaps the system should be developed, but considered an optional system?

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Hi!

My inclination has always been to do this. Even as an alternate/optional system.

I guess I'll open a thread and throw my thoughts in and depend on what has been done for this across the years on this topic.

We'll see where this goes, but I think its high time it should be done.

Primarch

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There's a big typo in the Gold Eldar Codex (an probably in previous versions) damage tables:

- in phantom/warlock titans, wing-weapon damage tables says:

- 1-3 roll for damage on the Wing
- 4-6 roll for damage on the Reactor

Correction
- 4-6 should be "roll for damage on the Weapon"
-> page 43 & page 46 in Eldar Gold Codex

Another typo:
- stats table page 55: phantom titan move is noted "25cm" should be "20cm" instead

Hi!

As per my suggestions on the space marine thread, here are additional eldar psychic powers to complete a list of 6 in which the player shall select three.

The powers in place (tempest, psychic lock and mind blast remain the same).

1. Augment: The warlock acts as a conduit for other eldar psykers. Any eldar psyker within 50cm of the warlock whom performs the augment has their own powers increase in range by +25cm and to hit rolls for psychic powers increase by +1 for that turn.
2. Enhance: The base move of any eldar formation within 25cm is increased by +5cm and their CAF by +1 for that turn.
3. Embolden: the warlock inspires eldar formations to great courage. Eldar formations with 25cm gain the fearless ability and +1 to CAF for that turn.

Thoughts?

Primarch

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By how many points will this increase warlock cost ?

Hi!

No point increase. You only get 3 powers, same as the warlock now. You only get a choice of which three.

The same goes for the SM librarian.

Compared to the chaos psykers and ork wierdboy, the warlock and librarian aren't that good.

The increased power selection is to make them worthwhile, but it doesn't mean you get more powers. Just 3 like always. Only difference now is that the player has more to choose from.

Primarch

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oO
Eldar Warlock is not that good ? We're talking of a psycker that costs 125 points for him + a falcon ?

Compared to the Nurgle/Khorne/Tzeentch/Slaanesh magis that costs 150 points for 1 stand and no transport (a falcon costs 50 points, that place the warlock at 75 points...). But if you play an undivided chaos army, what kind of magis can you pick ? Just a poor Renegade Psycker that nobody plays because it's so low.

I don't think Warlock needs extra powers, psychic lock is very powerful (being able to block a titan is quite interesting, no ?) Eldritch Storm is fantastic to hide your ass behind an unpenetrable screen). Boosting the warlock is just too much, it's really one of the unit in the game that's very very very very good.

A small joke heard during the battle:
- how many activations do you need to kill a warlock on jetbike ?
- as many as it's needed to make it die

Hi!

The original reason was the librarian which many feel underpowered.

If everyone thinks the warlock is okay as is, then we leave it that way.

I was feeling industrious today, so i posted for the eldar too.

Primarch

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I don't think there is much need for new Warlock powers as I do think the Warlock is a good unit, particularly for the points as Scream points out. Even if you don't decide to use the Psychic Lock against an enemy Titan, the Eldrich Storm is very handy for protecting your own units/Titans from incoming fire. I must admit that the Mind Shout is the only one that I haven't used often at all.

On the other hand, I really like the new powers and the idea of picking which ones you have before each battle!

Looks like I'm climbing back on to that fence again!

Note: Imagine how good the Eldrich Storm will be in Evolution; you activate & fire your Titan and then next activation get your Warlock to throw a storm in front of the Titan to protect it from incoming fire for the rest of the turn! I can see a points increase on the way!

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