I like that idea!

And guys, we're doing something fun here! We're creating a new list!

Personally idon't mind if the list turns into a Steel legion-ish list with some exotic AV/WE alternatives and some cool characters. It doesn't have to be completly different from other lists to be fun to plat. Maybe we should aim a little lower to start with?

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It likely could be used, but I figured that it would mostly come into use if the formation broke. That way there was a small chance the formation could rally and come out completely combat ready the next turn. Chalk it up to the crazy techpriest going nuts with assauging the machine spirit

I could see it as being a relatively small thing that could add some humor and fun to a game when it worked.



I think that might be just a little TOO light for the baseline though. Remember a Commissar gives you Leader, Fearless on his unit, and Inspiring.

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-Vaaish

The number 14 doesn't somehow denote an offensive deployment as Skitarii regiments are deployed as backup and support to the Adeptus Mechanicus offensive formations; their titan Legions.

Regarding your proposed rule; a broken guard formation within 30cm of an enemy will rally of a 5+, a broken marine formation within 30cm of an enemy will rally on a 4+, a broken cataphracti formation with your special rule within 30cm of an enemy will rally on a....2+. That doesn't seem right. In fact, the only time another imperial formation rallies better than your cataphracti is a marine formation that is outside of 30cm of an enemy, with blast markers but not broken, and even then yours have a 1 in 6 chance to remove all blast markers rather than just half.

I don't know why you're so resistant to using the existing blast marker removal rule of Leader for these character upgrades; try that first then, after some play tests, look at if a better rule is needed.

See that doesn't take everything into account. A marine formation takes 2x as many BM to even break in the first place while a guard formation has 2-3x the number of units a cataphractii formation has to begin with and won't break as easily. 16% odds of shedding all BM is hardly game breaking. Try playing the rule and seeing if you still think it's OP since your formations break far easier than any other army in the game.

You do realize that adding leader instead of the 16% odds of shedding all BM is actually better if we trust MadDoctors math, right?

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-Vaaish

Your arguing in circles. That's more regiments than any guard force brought to the battle outside of the Cadians and then by just one regiment. We know skitarii are used offensively and defensively so I don't see the point in arguing further.

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-Vaaish

That's only comparing the 1/6 chance to remove all blast markers against leader, it doesn't take into account the much more important always-2+-to-rally which will remove a lot more blastmarkers during a typical game and deliver the cataphracti player much more activations turn three which are critical to securing wins.

Don't forget that cataphractii will be breaking far more and need the boost to level it out on the table. You keep assuming that Cataphractii formations can expect to have the same durability on the table as IG or Marine formations which would allow us to compare the effects of rallying on equal footing when quite the opposite is true due to the size of each formation.

Where IG and Marines likely won't be broken at all, there is a strong possibility that the cataphractii formation will. Small formation size combined with and expected lower activation count makes it highly likely that rallying in the end phase will be crucial to the cataphractii even having a functioning force turn three.

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-Vaaish

I think the list should focus on encouraging playstyles to conserve and promote safe tactics to avoid formations being broken, adding in a special rule to compensate is just lazy and really says that there are problems more fundamental to the list

You keep saying IG formations are "bigger" which means they're less vulnerable to being broken, but that's quite a blanket statement, when many IG formations are actually quite small and easily broken (vultures, SHT platoons, sentinels) which on T3 is part of the game, you would be removing that option for an opponent, and making it the king of late game comebacks

I think the 2+ rally rule as proposed is seriously overpowered IMO, having stuff rallying from broken on a 2+ is pretty nasty

If you're dead set on this, remove the random element (combined with the stated aim of making the army competetive in T3, removing all blast markers too would be incredibly frustrating for an opponent) and just combine it with leader, alternatively just ignore the -1 penalty to rally from enemy within 30cm, giving you an entirely respectable 50/50 chance and putting you on par with marines, who don't ALL have reinforced armour or many weapons over 45cm range....

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oh - sorry mike - I missed you disliked the rally roll and not the bm bonus.

yeah. I agree, I don't see a need for it at this stage. If the list formations are constantly breaking then maybe we could bring it back, but we should probably get some models on the table first.

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I'm pretty sure he's not a fan of that either, from his multiple posts suggesting using leader instead....

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oi! don't stir!

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I'm not, I agree with him on both counts and for the same reasons.....inventing special rules to bandage a vulnerable formation speaks of deeper problems with the list in my personal opinion, plus the bog standard formations can be buffed against easy breaking by adding extra tanks instead of new special rules.....

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I have to agree with MikeT and Kyuss, Cataphractii formations rallying on 2+ is wrong for whatever reasons that are put forward.
None of the other AM lists get it even though they have the same command infrastructure, including battle Titans.
If 5 strong formations breaking too easily is a worry then make the starting formations bigger, although having played the E-UK Ulani tank list I doubt it will be as big a problem as first thought (they have 6 strong leman russ formations with no need for rallying bonus').

You are right there are some formations that are similar or smaller sized like the sentinels, but most of the core formations are far larger. for instance, a mechanized coy is around 20 units, and a standard russ formation is 10 units and a regular infantry coy at 13 units. A marine Tactical detachment take 18 BM to break with vehicles and even the small devastators take 8 without transport. Compare that to Cataphractii: Valdor and Russ coys are 5 units



Well... this is EXACTLY what the core marine list did with ATSKNF. You take that special rule away and marines are fundamentally unplayable due to formation size. I think it's perfectly acceptable to create special rules to allow a list to function appropriately and differently so long as you don't create an abundance of SR for a single list.


Anyway, if everyone is this opposed to making it easier for them to rally and shed BM, then lets move a different direction with the rule. We still have the option of the blessing rule granting the formation walker and an invulnerable save as a means of showing the techpriest repairing normally catastrophic damage or getting vehicles stuck in dangerous terrain free.

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-Vaaish

Give Tech Priests Leader. Leader is literally for helping remove extra blast markers. Necron Tomb spyders have leader to represent them literally rebuilding necrons in the field; I don't see why you're so resistant to using leader for a very similar situation here.