In almost every source, Skitarii (including Cataphractari) are listed as primarily as defensive forces; deployed in support of titan Legions or Magos explorator fleets. They're not intended as a primary military force, they're there for local security. There's nothing to indicate they'd see more combat than your average Steel Legion or Cadian regiment.

Steel Legion and Cadian regiments get no special rules for rallying.

Space Marine companies would see massively more combat and are recruited, trained and equipped as the elite of the elite. They undergo genetic and surgical modifications and hypnotherapy to, amongst other things, remove fear.

Space marine Companies get no special rules for rallying.

Tyranid armies are completely dominated and controlled by the hive mind; an immense and totally alien distributed consciousness that is perfectly willing to expend whole armies of individual organisms to achieve objectives. Individual troops are treated as ammunition to throw at the enemy. Tyranid armies would be the best rallying broken and disrupted formations; the hive mind would override any local lack of moral or confusion to push the formation onwards.

Tyranid armies have a weaker, watered down version of your rallying rules.

Uh Mike,

Steel Legion and Cadians get commissars
Space Marines get 'and they shall feel no fear'
Tyranids have a weaker watered down version - that applies to EVERY formation, not just the 3-4 with characters in.

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Imperial Guard commissars don't actually help with rallying or blast marker removal, and Space Marines are the Imperial pinicle of military technology and training; they should be better than any other imperial force at dealing with blast markers. The fact that what should be quirky imperial guard have a proposed rule for rallying massively better than the Tyranid one should be sounding massive alarm bells.


Skitarri aren't some super elite army; they're the bodyguards of an insular and clandestine organisation to secretive to trust the other armed forces and to hidebound to innovate. They're utilised primarily as defensive forces or providing on board troops for titans and space ships; they should actually have [i]worse/[i] organisation than the better imperial guard regiments like Cadians or Steel Legion when deployed as a separate force.

The idea that a tech priest can be represented in epic with blast marker removal is a very good one, but this can be easily abstracted by giving the character leader ability. A special rule for rallying is unnecessary and unwarranted and something as excessive as what is being proposed is way off.

You can't argue that these groups don't get benefits to support your statement that cataphractii shouldn't and then argue they should when it gets pointed out they do in fact have benefits.

Guard Commissars provide the leader rule which removes an extra BM as well as granting inspiring which is a +1 bonus to assault resolution AND granting the unit they are assigned to fearless.

Marines are way harder to suppress and break and once broken are hard to mop up since it takes two BM to kill a unit. On top of that they take half as many casualties if they lose an assault.

The Blessings rule is different than a commissar. It has no bearing on the discussion if a commissar helps your rally or not. Allowing cataphractii to rally on a 2+ and remove all BM 16% of the time is hardly cause for concern especially when an average formation is 5 models and it take just One kill to make the formation practically useless.

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-Vaaish

This is flat out incorrect. Again, see the 13th black crusade and the 3rd battle for Armageddon. Skitarii are part of the full fledged military arm of a pseudo-separate governmental entity within the Imperium proper that includes the Titan Legions, Skitarii, Cataphracii and Legio Cybernetica. They are genetically enhanced, mechanically augmented solders of the Adeptus Mechanicus equipped with the best equipment the AdMech can produce with some of their constructs on par or superior to a marine. They function as the offensive arm and defensive home force for AdMech interests and exploration. How does that NOT sound elite?

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-Vaaish

{([ Gently tip-toes in, deep breath, draws out the pin and . . .])}

Paying for these different characters as an upgrade would allow players to play 'ordinary' defence forces and 'Elite' personal guards.

{([ . . . accidently drops bomb on foot and limps back to safety (Ouch) ])}

^^ YES YES YES

I have to totally agree (again) with Ginger on this. CH and pay for upgrades.

1. It distinguishes this list further from Guard lists (something this needs more of IMHO)
2. By having a range of CH upgrades available it allows for customizing and personalizing the fielded army to specific strategies and play-styles
3. Guard are nothing but the PBI. It makes sense for them to get their free CH based on army size. The Ad Mech are nothing but elite forces, be they INF based or AV/WE list. (The Steam Locomotive on legs comment earlier is the best description I've ever read for how this should feel)
4. Ad Mech are not generalist formations. They are specialists. The CH upgrades allows that to be enhanced, if you're willing to pay the points. In fact, they play closer to Eldar with their specialized units than Guard I'd expect. (your armored formation is FANTASTIC in that regard)
5. CH can be targeted. This allows another level of strategies and dynamics to enter the game.

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I would be alright with the base blessings rule being included for free with paid upgrade options. However, if they are all paid we won't add the rule at all since it will be unlikely to see people take the characters.

Edit.
To expand on that a bit. I believe that the blessings rule is something that even the most generic ad mech cataphractii force would use and therefore needs to be part of the base cost. However there can be other options to upgrade all of the characters to represent different styles of customization from different forgeworlds or methods of play.

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-Vaaish

I can get behind that as an ambient. I might make it a little less powerful with the 6 removes all markers without a leader character. With the right character(s), that would be unlocked and give more a reason to take take them.

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Blessings would still be tied to the character but that would be your basic character. You could then pay X points to replace all instances of the basic character with a different one (provided the effect was worth additional cost)

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-Vaaish

Just a wee note.

The basic skittari list would be able to take formations of AV as allies*, without the benefit of the character driven rule.
This lets people field the planetary defense force type instead of the elites.

I'd be happy to see a simplified rule though. Given how few BM it takes to break an 6 tank formation, I think leader would actually be more powerful then 'remove all BM one sixth of the time.'
A leader would shed 3 BM over 3 turns.
the rule would shed 2.5BM over 3 turns (on average) IF the formation stayed at 5 BM at the end of every turn. If they were on a more typical 1,4,5 than it works out to 1.66BMs removed per turn (on average). Every 2nd game it has no effect at all.

Could I argue leader represents a techpreist's repairs better?
Thoughts?

*Although why you ever would when warhounds are an option escapes me

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Again, when deployed off forgeworld, Skitarri are normally used in defensive and support roles, preventing boarding of ships and titans, guarding titan deadzones etc. The fact that multiple titan Legions were deployed to Agamemnon would basically necessitate multiple Skitarii regiments as well.

This is all irrelevant though, as the question at hand is whether Skitarii are some kind of super elite force deserving of a rule massively increasing rallying chance. I would argue that they're not as, although they have superior weapons and equipment when compared to Imperial Guard regiments, that in itself doesn't make them elite.

On a seperate note, even if you are convinced they're somehow in need of a special rule revolving round blast markers, the current proposed one is massively overpowered, and the fact that you've considering giving it to formations for free "even" only 4 or 6, is mind boggling.

Weeell, could we use the Tech Priest 'leader' as the standard chap in most AV formations, and pay for an additional exotic character . . . . ?

I am not sure I understand your issues here.

Given that the list is Strat 2+ and these formations Init 2+ like other standard IG formations, adding some 'Leader' characters brings them back in line with standard IG list doesn't it? Adding further exotic chaps might be a bit excessive, hence the need to pay for them. So could you explain your concerns further.

Sooo... this is purely defensive and support only in your mind?

13th black crusade: 87 skitarii regiments (if you don't count the Cadians since it was basically their backyard, the adMech was nearly double that of any other outside contributor)

3rd war for Armageddon: 14 skitarii regiments (the Cadians only deployed 15 regiments and many others were half that)

Those are just the ones I can pull quickly, but that shows a very capable offensive force not one that operates in a support role.




Hyperbole aside, what do you base this massive overpowered state on? If Maddoctors math is right it's worse overall than just giving them leader!

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-Vaaish