Bissler brings up a good point. If the only reason to change the type of all of those units is because of the special abilities of two units from one Faction, it's probably going overboard.

Actually, 'Light Artillery' is a specific unit type in NetEpic. Generally speaking, it includes the Rapier, Mole Mortar, Thudd Gun, Bright Lance, Infantry Gun, Hop Splat, etc. All of these units could not function without their crew, which have the same armor as baseline troops of their Faction (IE none). It really wouldn't be that much more complicated to add it in, in my opinion anyway. What do others think?

Thus Howling Banshee would now say: "This attack is only effective against Infantry, Cavalry, and non-robotic Light Artillery units that do not have a Fixed armor save."

Scorpions would thus say: "Unfortunately they do not have sufficient penetrating power to be effective versus armored targets, and thus only gain this benefit against Infantry, Cavalry, and non-robotic Light Artillery units that do not have a fixed armor save, against anything else they only roll 1d6 + CAF in Close Combat."

This would save us the bother of re-typing any units, and is about as straight-forward and uncomplicated as it gets, in my view anyway.

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I can live with this change!

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Hi!

Works for me. I'm always for me doing less writing/editing.

Primarch

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Hi!

As I read through the thread once more and focus on the wind host issue, I think it is important to stress it is not as big as the original one was. I found even myself missing this point. You get 10 less models in the new format. I think 550 is a good price for that.

As far as Sam Hain if it uses the old one then there are two methods to solve this. Increase the price or enforce the unit acquisition restriction.

I prefer to keep the cost the same (at a nice discount), however the restriction on tempests needs to be absolute. As in "no tempest formations may be added to a Sam Hain Craftworld force".

Also I will add that craftworlds MAY NOT ally with each other. In other words craftworlds are "pure" lists with selections restricted to their craftworld list.

The only exception is when the Eldar face chaos you may add up to a maximum of 25% of your force in units from other craftworlds, however any restrictions MUST be observed.

In other words if you bring a Sam hain winder host, you can't bring tempests (though you could acquire normal sized ones and still get tempest tanks).

Primarch

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I was with you until this last sentence.

Acquire normal sized what ones? And how could you get Tempests when you've clearly stated that you can't bring Tempests if you have a Saim Hain Wind Rider Host?

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Hi!

What I mean is you could play Sam hain, bring a normal sized wind rider host from another craft world as an allied formation and thus you could bring tempest formations, since the restriction is not violated because you did not bring the Sam Hain wind rider host. If you bring that one then no tempest.

The restriction (penalty) only really applies when you bring the oversized Sam hain one. If your playing against chaos as Sam hain you could conceivable bring tempests as long as the Sam hain wind rider host is not included.

Clearer?

Primarch

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Ah! Much clearer, I'm with you now!

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Hi!

Of course you could say that if you play Sam hain its because you want the wind rider host, but I did not want to be so rigid in the implementation of this restriction in an allied force versus chaos.

So as long as the Sam Hain wind host and tempests don't coexist in the same force, I think it is okay to bring allied (smaller) wind hosts and allow tempests in a Sam Hain force versus chaos.

Some may say there would be no point in bringing Sam hain as the main force against chaos without the wind host, but that is their choice. You still not getting tempests and the larger sized windhost in one force.

Primarch

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Big problem here. Only the Siam Han have a "Wind Rider Host" (which has five detachments), all other Craftworlds (and other Eldar) only have "Jet Bike Hosts" (which have three detachments). Please stop using the name "Wind Rider Host" for both formations, as it does not apply to both. The one guy (sorry, I've forgotten who) kept trying to make this point, but never quite got it through.

As to restricting forces by Craftworld, it should make no difference whatsoever if a Siam Han force has a Wind Rider Host or not, as that Craftworld should be restricted from using Tempest tanks at all if they are going to restricted at all. To put that another way, they would not be restricted because they get/have a bonus formation, but just because they are who they are.

As an example, the Word Bearers gain the option of taking the Dark Apostle formation. They are also prohibited from using Cultists of any kind. This limitation is not dependent on them taking a Dark Apostle, it just is there because they are who they are. The same should be true of the Eldar Craftworlds. If you change the Siam Han to work oddly like this, you'd also have to change all other Factions that have bonus formations and restrictions to be so dependent, just to be fair.

For that matter, why is it just and specifically Tempests? Based on the Siam Han fluff, they should not want to use any Super Heavy, not just Tempests. I'd have to guess that the restriction is a holdover form before there were other Super Heavy Eldar vehicles, and it just never got updated. I'd be strongly inclined to drop the "Unique" status of the actual 'Wind Rider Host' and restrict Siam Han from using any non-flyer super heavy at all. This would also require increasing the cost of the 'Wind Rider Host' somewhat, probably to 800, 850, or 900. Still a substantial savings, but not quite as severe.

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Hi!

Points taken.

I confess, I'm one of those still coming to grips with the names and the difference between now and back in the old days. I hope eventually it will sink in.

You raise another good point with the super heavy restriction. Its a holdover from the old days where there were no other super heavies other than the tempest.

If I understand you correctly, Sam Hain should now have a unit called "wind rider host" which while unique to that craftworld would be a freely available company card (albeit at a higher cost) and to balance this they may not select any formation classified as "super heavy".

Is that correct?

As for cost at place it around 750. Mainly because I think there will be a lot of resistance for a higher cost than that and partly because most forces get some kind of discount.

We'll see what people think price wise.

Primarch

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Sort of agree with Magnus (even as a Saim Hann player from back in the day) if you choose to be that craftworld then access to superheavies should be restricted (though there isn't that sort of restriction in 40k, GW even has superheavies in Saim Hann colours). So to add a bit more fuel to the fire, what if rather than completely banning them, they are more expensive/harder to take? Something like, only allowed support formations of SHs but they count as a special choice, plus bump the cost up by 50% to represent that the vehicles are rarer in this craftworld. Could do the same with the phantom titans, bump the hull cost by 50% so more expensive to take.

Matt

As to the cost of a Wind Rider Host, if calculated with no discount, two Vyper Squadrons would be 500 (250 each) and three Jet Bike Squadrons would be 600 (200 each), for a total of 1100. A cost of 750 would be a 350 point discount, basically a 33% markdown. I confess that I have not done a study of the unique company formations, so I don't know if this is a reasonable discount or not, but it feels too steep. Especially since players would now be able to take several of them.

That was the gist of what I proposed for the super heavies, but I'm liking Matman's suggestion. Still ban the Tempest Host, and make all super heavy support formations into Special formations (for Siam Han only). Even without an added cost, this could work. Now, the Phantom Titan would probably need the price bump, or we could restrict it to just one Titan (Phantom or Warlock) per army.

Oh, and I specifically called out super heavy flyers as they 'go faster' like the Siam Han prefer, so they should not be restricted. At least, I think Eldar now have a super heavy flyer or two. I could be wrong.

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Hi!

Very interesting ideas.

Just banning the tempest host and have all super heavy formations count as special ones, would really limit their numbers, since Eldar companies are pretty expensive, they would not get the chance to add many. Even at the stock prices for the formations.

As for titans, I would limited them, but not one per army, but perhaps one per full 6000 points (or other such number).

As for the wind rider host cost, if they are to be commonly available in that list then 850 could be the best compromise.

Primarch

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In France, we use it for Saim-Hann :
1) Wind Rider Host : cost 750, Unique (with Squats Bikers Company at 700 instead of 600, the two strenght cavalry are a increased prize). It is not abuse because Wind Rider is more weak than ork KOS plus one Nobz Warbikes card and one Boyz Warbikes card (I know, I use always my ork cavalry against WRH and I win).

2) Saim-Hann can not buy Tempest Company.

3) Saim-Hann can only buy one Superheavy card OR one Revenants Titans card as support. The others Superheavy cards or the others Revenants Titans cards must be buy at special cards (even the card is normally a support card).

4) As Saim-Hann is a Craftwolrd list, it is not possible to take any ally (even in the Eldar Standard List)

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Hi!

If the wind rider host was no longer unique, what cost would you give it?

Primarch

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