I like where this list is heading!!

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Apparently there's also a siege version of the Crassus/Praetor called the Dominus Bombard.

In the historic astartes there's the fellblade, glaive and sicarian: http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/The_Horus_H ... er_reset=1

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There is indeed, the rules are in Imperial Armour 2: Second Edition. The Dominus is armed with a triple Bombard Cannon (note a 40k Bombard is nothing like the anomalous EpicA version being not short ranged but having the same range as a Basilisk).

Space Marine superheavies wouldn't be at all appropriate for the AM so I'm not sure why you're mentioning them?

they're superheavies, and presumably the Ad-Mech have acess to the chassis

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Figured I'd let it all sink in a little before replying. Somethoughts:

1) The lander looks OK, but yeah, the missile launcher. Maybe cut it to 30cm to represent a final approach landing zone clearance weapon systems perhaps? Otherwise yeah, it starts to become a flying warhound(isAs with transport capacity.

2) Conquerors, Executioners, Vanquishers, and Valdors...

Tough one. After looking closer at the Valdor, its a different weapons system but basically an Executioner (trade 5cm movement for MW3+ & disrupt over MW4+). Given the choices, I'm not sure I'd take many Executioners unless my Valdor formation size was heavily restricted, given formation cost & size parity.

This is tough, because I recognize valid lore reasons for taking both.

In comparison, a squadron of Vanquishers has about the same killing power in close, and more range on its primary weapon. Its a better generalist than both the Executioner and the Valdor, so I offer a question: Would you rather this be a list of generalist units, or a list that promotes specialist units and combined arms formations?

Which takes me to Conquerors. They're more generalist than Valdors and Executioners, but not as effective as Vanquishers, or as costly. They track pretty well, tactically, to Knight Lancers (well-armored, 30cm move, 45cm generalist main weapon), and so would work well for flanking moves and setting up crossfires for the MW tanks to exploit. A 60cm double move isn't something people usually think of when looking at a Leman Russ hull, which has its uses.

3) Super-heavy Tanks

The more I think about it, the more I support just sticking with Baneblade/Shadowsword/Stormblade, and/or Macharius heavies.

The list will have access to Ordinatus Minoris out of its allies section, which will run on average to up to 1000-1330 points to spend on aircraft, infantry, Titans, or Ordinatus Minoris. Either of those last two can pretty much be custom-equipped to fill in tactical gaps in the list for players, and the list can't be thought of without considering what you can add there (reaver with dual quakes and a landing pad, or the cheaper dual inferno guns and a landing pad, laser blaster minoris, heck, double gatling blaster minoris or double vulcan minoris). Its not hard to replace a vanquisher maniple or a SHT company with comparable (or possibly multiple cheaper) activations that can generate the same results, though in a somewhat more vulnerable form.

Thoughts?

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Yeah, I agree. I was reading back over the entry for it and I think we can call them Ram Missiles with a range of 30cm instead of a short range Apoc launcher.



I pulled the executioners from the core because the valdors seemed an option that would really kill the desire to use the Executioner. People seem to think there would still be a use for them though so they are back. We could play with the points a bit, make the Valdors 500 points due to their utility with the range, disrupt, and garrison capability and perhaps drop the Vanq/Executioner to 400 or 425.

I see the Vanq being used since it provides more AP firepower than the Valdors and more mobility which makes it a nice core choice. The Executioner is a bit more iffy since it's so similar to the Valdor. It's also a tank that should be in this list. putting it as an upgrade made it an interesting choice since you could add three MW shots to a Vanq Maniple and maybe 2 hydras which would give you a decent sized mobile formation with air cover.

The conqueror still sits wrong with me though. Most of the AdMech lists are slower moving lists with the fastest units outside warhounds maxing at around 25cm and not being as common. Adding in a 30cm core formation breaks that considerably. I'd rather see slower formations some of which can garrison and the dropship to let you get your troops in position than outright speed.

Since we have things like Macharius, Baneblades, and Vanquishers. There are a lot of generalist units with a few more focused ones available like shadowswords. You can basically expect any MW unit to be a generalist one too.




Definitely thinking about this. With how we are integrating the allies you can't really think of just the Skitarii or Cataphractii as that list, but more segmentation of a single list that focuses on different aspects. There are considerable drawbacks to loading up on minorii or Titans though. If you start replacing Russ Maniples and Valdors you get access to fewer heavy and support slots which could hamper your activations and ability to fill out the points. I don't really see folks going crazy adding in two minorus companies in a 3k list nor do I see it heavily impacting the list play. If it becomes a problem, we can just restrict it to core Skitarii formations and leave the minorus as specific to the skitarii list.

Right now we have aircraft as support slots but we could move them over to allies which will also cut down on the utility in using your allies budget for bigger things.

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Another note, we could see about replacing the Crusader Maniple with some form of Conqueror maniple or cohort. There isn't much reason to bring the robots over other than the list needs a scout and speed element. The downside is it would be a more expensive formation and perhaps not as capable, but it would be faster.

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I'd do that, personally.

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Personally i'm up for more stompy robots at all times, but following the calls for them how about scouting Conquerors ?

Though personally i'm keen on some knights in the list - again in a scouting roll...?

Anyone else want to weigh in on the Conqueror vs Crusader maniple? We'd be weighing down the list with a pretty point heavy formations. The Crusader would give some relief to that and provide a unit with scout. I think I'm averaging perhaps 7-8 activations in a 3k list.



I don't see this happening. At some point mixing in the knight list would be cool perhaps as an allied option, but not as a direct unit within the list. The forge knight is the sole exception and it's a made up unit that I'd be more than willing to discard if not for players wanting to keep them in. That's why they are limited only to the Titan list itself.

Any other thoughts or ideas anyone wants to float before we move back to nailing down the loose ends I've got up in the discussion section of the first post so we can start testing the list?

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Anyone got any good suggestions for avenger and Valdor proxies??

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AM Dropship thoughts:

No way should the thing have fearless! It's appropriate for the Landing Craft because it's a transport / drop assault fortress crewed by space marines. An AM lander should be less designed to drop into the heat of battle and affected by blast markers normally. An ork Landa isn't fearless

Modelwise leave the exposed vehicles on the outside thing to the SM, have this enclosed as normal.

Something able to transport the weight of 3 superheavy Baneblades would have to be fricking HUGE and 3DC is WAY too low. Thanks to the figures in the Imperial Armour books I can show this with numbers:

4 Land Raiders weigh 288 tonnes in total
10 Leman Russ weighs 600 tonnes in total
3 Baneblades weigh 957 tonnes in total

This should be DC8 or so. Probably then without void shields and with 5+ Reinforced.

Think of a better name! Devourer doesn't sound appropriate for a transport, plus it's the name of a Tyranid weapon to boot.

Surely it should have some defensive AA?

AoC:



I'm really not fond of making a core choice a WE in a list like this. I know we have this in the Titan list and its unavoidable there. I'm also not keen on a formation of 5 of these expensive as it may be. I'd rather just keep the cohort and eliminate the maniple.

Support choices:
I think there are far too many things here. AA is going to take priority so two slots will go to avengers and likely the rest to crusaders for cheap activations. Talk of adding ordinatus as well is way too much. This is why I split it up with core, heavy, and support. less pressure on slots to let people take more variety without compromising their list.



The compendium has this listed at 200 in the minervan list.



This is a choice that should be left to the player. Forced mechanization places an unnecessary restriction on a player. If you want your skitarii allies mechanized, nothing prevents you from doing just that and if you want to represent tanks backed up by dismounted skitarii, you are free to do that as well. Remember, most infantry moves at the same speed as a baneblade or macharius.

After much thought, I'm going to restrict the skitarii allies to just core formations. You can bring in a minorus as part of one of these which is fitting to the fluff and keeps the Skitarii list centered on the ordinatus. It also keeps the minorus and majoris from competing with the large number of armored options we already have.

Back to the devourer:

I didn't name it, that's what the thing is called! See here:
http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/File:De ... is8T9JwqKI




Actually, read the link I put to the ship. Dropping into the heat of battle is exactly what this thing is designed to do!


In theory, yes it should probably have more hits, but we want there to be an element of risk involved. DC8 basically says forget shooting this guy down. I think the 2VS and DC3 makes it a bit more of a risk to use but we could bump it to 3VS and 4 DC which is 7 hits total, but only 4 hits to RA.


It could get some, but I wanted it more vulnerable than a LC and the fluff doesn't seem to indicate much arms outside of the lascannons and missiles.

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I hadn't realise it was a real unit, I'd forgotten what that thing was called.

Look at the picture though:


If you want to represent the Devourer then it would be around 30cm by 15cm big in Epic, the largest unit in the game by far. It looks like it has a rather higher transport capacity than you are statting it as too, with infantry and transport vehicles on the top deck and tanks on the bottom. And you want to give the Devourer DC3??

If you're scaling it's size and transport capacity down a lot from how it is in there (probably better renaming it a new craft then) then a craft able to carry 3 superheavies would still at absolute minimum be around 20cm by 12cm and probably realistically a bit larger than that. That's really not DC3 territory at all.

Make it vulnerable by lowish armour like 5+ Reinforced and a critical that kills it. Even with a high DC it would still be vulnerable and at risk from AA (1 AA hit on average doing 0.444 damage compared to 0.25 on a Landing Craft). Giving it two void shields is a mistake as it makes it immune to the first 2 AA hits and safer inititally air assaulting or ground attacking than a Landing Craft.

Maybe it should be a poorly armed Support Craft with Self-Planetfall too, more like a Manta or Executor than a Landing Craft. I'm dubious that it should be making fly over bombing runs.