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Alternating Activation System (Bissler-geddon!)

 Post subject: Re: Alternating Activation System (Bissler-geddon!)
PostPosted: Tue Sep 03, 2013 10:18 pm 
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The flanking idea looks like a good'un to me!

One question: For every unit that can flank, can they do so on turn 1 or is it from turn 2 onwards? Or does the player doing the flanking have to roll to see if they arrive on the board?
The prospect of a Titan being able to deploy behind my force on Turn 1 is alarming to say the least! Turn it into a Titan killer by arming it with a Close Combat weapon, and if you are lucky enough, you should be able to catch an enemy Titan with its back to you.

EDIT: I look forward to hearing about how your playtest goes! Exciting times!

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 Post subject: Re: Alternating Activation System (Bissler-geddon!)
PostPosted: Tue Sep 03, 2013 10:45 pm 
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Hi!

There is no roll for "when" the unit appears, but you gave me an idea to further develop this.

Addition to proposed idea

Formations that will choose to enter through an entry zone may only do so as of the second turn of the game (this simulates the extra time it takes to flank march).

However a player may choose to take a riskier course and attempt to deploy units through an entry zone on turn one. This imposes a -1 to the armies flank value. Note that such a decision to attempt to deploy on turn one has to be made prior to rolling any dice and cannot be rescinded after the dice have been rolled.

Example: A space marine army normally has a flank value of 4+. However the marine player wishes to to push his luck and hopes for an early forced march on turn one. He rolls his allotted dice and now his target number is 5+ instead of 4.

This will make success more difficult and since stuff like titans cost TWO success it will be rare to see a turn one titan appear in the rear.

Only some armies could do this with any measure of success. For example orks and IG would need to roll 6's (and more than one to bring a titan), so only in the games with high point values.

You also gave me another idea. While it is fine for players to choose what entry zones exist in a game, why not add a table to make it random?

Entry zone availability

1: no entry zones available
2-5 only side edges of game table are entry zones
6: Special entry zone (rear, drop zones, etc).

That way there is no arguing over entry zones. ;)

Primarch


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 Post subject: Re: Alternating Activation System (Bissler-geddon!)
PostPosted: Tue Sep 03, 2013 10:53 pm 
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Nice! Seems good to me! :)

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 Post subject: Re: Alternating Activation System (Bissler-geddon!)
PostPosted: Tue Sep 03, 2013 11:05 pm 
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The Bissler wrote:
Nice! Seems good to me! :)


Hi!

Thanks!

Writing some flyer rules now. ;)

Primarch


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 Post subject: Re: Alternating Activation System (Bissler-geddon!)
PostPosted: Tue Sep 03, 2013 11:30 pm 
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Hi!

Proposed flyer system to integrate with Bissler-geddon

We at net epic has tons of experience with alternate flyer rules. We have been added, then removing such rules since net epic was born. ;)

With a combined activation system it presents great opportunities to revisit old ideas.

Point one

We learned from the past to place flyer missions in its own separate phase. More importantly we learned to place that phase LAST. We tried putting that first (very bad mistake, especially on turn one) and in the middle it didn't work out that great.

Leaving it before the end phase clean up worked best.

Point two

While I understand that by scale, a flyer should be able to come in, perform its mission and leave the table in one activation. While it is realistic it defeats the purpose of having nicely painted flyers on the tabletop. Why have them at all if they cannot be seen and interacted with?

Due to this we'll keep movement rates for fliers, to keep them "visible" and enjoy them. ;)

Point three

We like the three order system. So we keep flyer missions to three as well. You can use the same three counters (first fire, advance and charge) or make new ones. But we kept them at three.

So with these three points as guidelines we propose the following:

The "air missions" phase occurs after the assault phase ends and before the end phase.

Flyers move from their sides deployment zone into the battle area. Fliers may not use entry zones (they always start on their own table side).

During movement any units with the anti-aircraft ability may fire at flier formation within range. Hits, armored saves and casualties are taken immediately. Units that take at least one casualty of AA fire must roll a morale check to continue the mission. Only ONE such check per turn is taken regardless of the casualties taken.

A given unit with the AA ability may only fire ONCE at a flier formation during a given turn.

Once flier formations enter the airspace of the game table they remain on the table. If they choose to leave they may not return for this battle and the opponent receives half their VP value rounded up.

Fliers may be given 1 of 3 orders:

Strafe/bombing (advance order): A flier formation with a strafe bombing order may move and shoot any or all its weapons during any part of its movement. Note that it may attract AA fire from AA capable unit at any point of its move.

Defensive formation (first fire order): flier formations with this air mission may land if capable to do so and unload their transport cargo. Any flier formations that try to intercept a flier formation on defensive formation will first withstand defensive fire of the units (they may fire all their weapons ONLY at the interceptors). The survivors may them engage them in aerial dogfights. Units capable of AA fire will receive return fire from surviving units with this order (all weapon may fire upon AA that has fired on them). Formations with this order may not fire at any units with the exception of units trying to intercept them or AA units that fired at them.

Interception (charge order): Flyer formations with intercept orders, seek out other fliers to engage them in close combat. Since they are not seeking to engage ground targets they impose a -1 penalty on all units capable of firing at fliers (AA units). Once the interceptors have engaged they will fight an aerial combat round.

Aerial dogfights.

Dogfights are mean business. Once a round of dog-fighting is over the formation that lost the most models has to roll for moral. If it passes another round of dog-fighting ensues. Continue until one side has been eliminated or routed.

If the losing formation fails its morale roll the winning side may fire all its ranged weaponry as the loses breaks from the dogfight. If any units survive, move those their full move to their own table edge (AA fire applies). If the flier leaves the table it is removed from play. If it doesn't leave the table it may attempt to rally in the end phase.

As ground units they follow the single/combined activation (move and shoot).

We could include some "abilities" for fliers:

Interceptor: incoming AA shots are at -2 instead of -1.
Flying fortress: Defensive fire receives a +1 bonus
Skilled bomber: Re-roll misses on one weapons system.

Thoughts?

Primarch


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 Post subject: Re: Alternating Activation System (Bissler-geddon!)
PostPosted: Tue Sep 03, 2013 11:44 pm 
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I'm not best qualified when it comes to fliers but I have no issues with any of this! Excellent work and a big thumbs up from me!

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 Post subject: Re: Alternating Activation System (Bissler-geddon!)
PostPosted: Wed Sep 04, 2013 1:10 am 
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The Bissler wrote:
I'm not best qualified when it comes to fliers but I have no issues with any of this! Excellent work and a big thumbs up from me!


Hi!

No worries. We learned in net epic that not everyone uses fliers. So by having a separate phase for them it is easy to discard and not use, which is an intentional design.

I think I will go big and play 6000 points.

Any requests as to what armies you'd like to see play and test these rules?

Primarch


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 Post subject: Re: Alternating Activation System (Bissler-geddon!)
PostPosted: Wed Sep 04, 2013 1:18 am 
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Going for a sizeable battle is a good idea. If there are major problems with the system they should be more apparent in a large confrontation!

Since this playtest will mark your return from a long sabbatical I think you should pick the forces that are your favourites to play.

Oh, and I forgot to put the first and most important rule into the system: Have fun! ;D

Enjoy!!!

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 Post subject: Re: Alternating Activation System (Bissler-geddon!)
PostPosted: Wed Sep 04, 2013 3:31 am 
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The Bissler wrote:
Going for a sizeable battle is a good idea. If there are major problems with the system they should be more apparent in a large confrontation!

Since this playtest will mark your return from a long sabbatical I think you should pick the forces that are your favourites to play.

Oh, and I forgot to put the first and most important rule into the system: Have fun! ;D

Enjoy!!!


Hi!

Hmmm.....

I think I will pick Imperial Guard (pure force no allies) and the Eldar. Mainly because I am curious how an imperial titan versus Phantom will work.

Also, both sides have good fliers and I will test that part as well.

I many not be able to this weekend, but I will set up the table this week and next to do so by next weekend.

Of course there will be pictures! ;D

Primarch


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 Post subject: Re: Alternating Activation System (Bissler-geddon!)
PostPosted: Thu Sep 05, 2013 3:54 am 
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Hi!

Bissler, as I think more about the rules, have your given thought on the effects of the first fire rules on artillery?

Did you see any problems with these units?

Primarch


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 Post subject: Re: Alternating Activation System (Bissler-geddon!)
PostPosted: Thu Sep 05, 2013 8:30 am 
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In a word - no. And it's an excellent point to make.

The only barrage we had in the playtest was the Warlock Titan's missile launcher and the Pulsar (firing in barrage mode) which we did give the +1 to. It didn't make any difference to the game but that was because:
1) When the missile launcher was used against the devastators, they were in rubble and therefore the +1 was negated by the cover*.
2) The Pulsar was already 2+ to hit, a roll of 1 is still always a miss. I don't know if I put that in the rules but I always assume that. Of course, if there was a to hit modifer, eg -2, the +1 would still be taken into consideration, giving a roll of 3+.

I've been thinking about this for about half an hour or so... Let it go for the timebeing and see how we feel about it? We were hoping to make the game slightly more lethal so maybe run with it. Maybe I haven't been using them extensively enough, but I've never felt the artillery units powerful enough - excepting the likes of the Doomsday and Goliath Mega-Cannon of course.

*Am I playing this right? Cover modifiers still affect rolls to hit for barrages? I was actually wondering about that on Saturday...

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 Post subject: Re: Alternating Activation System (Bissler-geddon!)
PostPosted: Thu Sep 05, 2013 3:27 pm 
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The Bissler wrote:
In a word - no. And it's an excellent point to make.

The only barrage we had in the playtest was the Warlock Titan's missile launcher and the Pulsar (firing in barrage mode) which we did give the +1 to. It didn't make any difference to the game but that was because:
1) When the missile launcher was used against the devastators, they were in rubble and therefore the +1 was negated by the cover*.
2) The Pulsar was already 2+ to hit, a roll of 1 is still always a miss. I don't know if I put that in the rules but I always assume that. Of course, if there was a to hit modifer, eg -2, the +1 would still be taken into consideration, giving a roll of 3+.

I've been thinking about this for about half an hour or so... Let it go for the timebeing and see how we feel about it? We were hoping to make the game slightly more lethal so maybe run with it. Maybe I haven't been using them extensively enough, but I've never felt the artillery units powerful enough - excepting the likes of the Doomsday and Goliath Mega-Cannon of course.

*Am I playing this right? Cover modifiers still affect rolls to hit for barrages? I was actually wondering about that on Saturday...


Hi!

Unless it has an ability to ignore cover, then you apply the -2. So it sounds like you did it right.

I'll be using IG as one of the test armies. While lots of artillery I'll see how well they do.

I don't mind the increased lethality. In my mind it makes it more "realistic" as well as a quicker paced game.

I think we are perhaps over analyzing too much. It is time to PLAY our ideas now. ;)

Primarch


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 Post subject: Re: Alternating Activation System (Bissler-geddon!)
PostPosted: Thu Sep 05, 2013 5:58 pm 
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Go for it! I can't wait to see the pics! ;D

Oh, and thanks for clarifying that point about the barrages - I thought that was the case but wanted to be sure.

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 Post subject: Re: Alternating Activation System (Bissler-geddon!)
PostPosted: Thu Sep 05, 2013 8:13 pm 
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Hi!

I'll be dedicating a little time to get the spreadsheets of the armies done the next couple of days, but this weekend I will prepare the forces for a game the following week. :)

Primarch


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 Post subject: Re: Alternating Activation System (Bissler-geddon!)
PostPosted: Fri Sep 06, 2013 8:32 am 
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I've been thinking again about the FF option of double fire and the more I think about it the more I think it's too powerful. It's fine for basic vehicles which is what I had in mind, but once you get into superheavies and Titans it's going to be far too overpowered.

So I've came up with a new alternative where players have the chance to go for high risk/high gain strategy or play it a little safer:

First Fire:

+1 on to hit rolls, -1 TSM for target vehicle. May snap fire without penalty. Enemy units gain a +1 on to hit rolls against this unit.

OR

Standard to hit rolls, vehicle can move 1/4 standard move rate, +1 to armour saves if vehicle hit. May snap fire but with -1 to hit modifier.

Fluff explanation:

Option 1: The unit is completely stationary to give the weapons crew the best possible chance of hitting opponents. The unit targets weak points in enemy armour, giving a -1 TSM for any hits landed. This is cumulative to any TSM modifiers that the weapon being fired has. The downside is that this makes the vehicle an easy target, giving enemy units a +1 on rolls to hit when firing upon this unit.

Option 2: The vehicle's crew position the vehicle's armour in the most advantageous angle to deflect incoming fire, the result of which means they gain a +1 on armour save rolls.

If a unit is fired upon before it is activated, the player must decide there and then which version of the order he/she is using and declare it (as it will affect rolls to hit/armour saves).

Thoughts?

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