Hi Magnus,

I'm just heading off to work so don't have time to respond at length. However, with regards to:-

"Is there a particular reason that the titles for a TITAN that has gained experience are all based on what the crew are called? If the rationale is that these are for the crew themselves, then they are rather insulting at the beginning as every Titan has a Princeps, and calling him/her a Moderati would be an insult. Much like you'd never, never refer to an Inquisitor as "Hey you!". Unfortunately, I have not come up with a better sequence than yours for Imperials.

For that matter, a Titan with zero XP should not have a title at all. It should earn that honorific. Perhaps it should not have a title at all until it earns it's first Honor at 6XP. I don't have a problem with them gaining a title at 1XP+, but it seems a little odd."

Unless I'm much mistaken, I'm sure the titles for Imperial Titans came from the experience rules in Adeptus Titanicus and so were GW sanctioned. I could be wrong, but the others may have come from the Titan Legions rulebooks.

Because of my lack of interest in the fluff I have no problem with what the levels are called, it could be 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 for all I care.

@Primarch: Good point you raised about my hypothetical situation. I'm happy to go with that, but maybe with one caveat; I think the honors for Imperial Titans should cost 100 points rather than 50. Sorry for reopening a can of rather unpleasant worms...

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Hi!

Comments below.



Several of these of old background titles. The words Princeps and Moderati were actually "ranks" for the crew. The word Princeps, is an off shoot from Latin meaning "first or to have primacy". A lot of the old fluff had a lot of pseudo derived "Latin" terms.

I guess technically if you lead the crew, you a "princeps" the moment you are jacked into your first titan. So perhaps this order:

Princeps (unproven), veteran Princeps, Princeps Senoris, Princeps Majoris, Princeps Primus, Princeps Commander, Grandmaster.



Perhaps this:

Initiate, Favored, Chosen, Ascendant, Champion, Exulted Champion, Warmaster.



Asuryan and Vaul are major Eldar deities present in Eldar GW background found in rulebooks, novels and across game systems. Asuryan is the chief diety, like a sun god. Vaul is the "smith" god. Eldar phantoms are consecrated in his name. Most eldar super heavy vehicles are also called "engines of vaul", amongst the Eldar.

The original AT and 1st edition epic was in this sense much more "flavorful" that later versions.

Remember I'm an old man....



These are pretty good. I'd change soldier for "guardian" since that's what a basic soldier is called in Eldar society and the last one to "transcendent master".



I like these better, we'll keep these.



As most of the time, I just make these up as I go and let others take a shot at a better name. Actually you made me think of one for the 0 level. "unblooded", as it has not yet killed. I like the hunter addition, so it would look like: Unblooded, Hunter, Marauder, Predator, Hierach, Hierach Alpha, Hivelord.



No game function at all!

Some people like a little background and flavor to their rules, no real use beyond that. The old hands like me generally like that kind of stuff. I would not worry over it too much, since players that don't fancy the background can discard it without any consequence.

Note the actual table will simply be:
0-5 0 level (the titles go in the parenthesis for those who want them)
6-15 Advancement level 1
16-30 Advancement level 2
31-50 Advancement Level 3
51-75 Advancement Level 4
76-100 Advancement Level 5
101+ Advancement Level 6

Advancement level determines maximum number of honors for that level.

As you can see its functional, concise and the parenthesis adds the titles for flavor for those whom want it.

If "fluff" is not your thing, that's okay, but since it has no rules mechanics impact its easy to put aside.



Corrected in master summary.



Corrected in master summary.

Primarch

My usual copy/paste mistakes.....

Corrected in master summary. Removed duplicated sentence.



Correct in the master summary to:

A roll of 6 always fails, however a chaos titan and crew of warmaster level (level 6) rolls 2d6 and the player selects one of the two die rolls to see if it gains a chaos reward.



Good catch. Added to master document:

Chaos rewards are earned in addition to standard honors. Only honors count towards the maximum number of honors for an advancement level.



Sometimes its more like lazy...

In a game its always good to have easy options.



The easiest route is to just add "unique weapons such as those mounted on the Banelord, Bubonis and Skylok are the recommended scope of the use of this reward".

This gives a recommendation without having to be to specific or "wordy".

Primarch

Hi!

All added to master summary post.

Question? Didn't we want to remove the 25cm range restriction on the fire dragon path? I do not consider removing it to be unbalanced and on par with other powerful titan abilities. I'd remove it and let it ignore cover altogether.

Everyone give another look through for typos/errors and omissions. Tomorrow I begin opening threads for the revision.

Primarch

Some of your comments were cryptic because of missing words, misspellings, or other oddness. I've tried to fix them as best I could. Let me know if any are wrong.



Close, but not quite right. A Moderatus (Moderati is the plural) is a member of an Imperial Titan crew that runs a weapon mount, motive system, or the sensors. The Princeps is the primary operator of the Titan and is thus it's Commander. So it's only partly their 'rank' and partly their job title.

I am familiar with the pseudo-latin feel to Imperial terms. I rather like it. I also rather do like fluff overall. More about that later.

Also, whether they are ranks or not is irrelevant to the question that I asked. Which was why are the titles aimed at the crew rather than at the Titan as a whole? It's not the crew that gain XP, it's the Titan. It's not the crew that gain levels, it's the Titan. It's not the crew that gain Honors, it's the Titan. Yes, the crew can gain Skills, but that's random. Yes, the crew are a part of the Titan, but they are only a part. They are not the entirety of it. Admittedly it was downplayed in 2nd edition, but back in 1st (and various editions of 40K) there were many references to a Titan having it's own personality, it's "machine spirit" that linked the crew and Titan together as one unit. It is this whole that is what gains XP, levels, and Honors. Or at least it should be, in my opinion anyway.

As to specific level titles, Princeps Senioris and Princeps Majoris already have specific definitions in the fluff that are incompatible with this system (reference http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Princeps#.UfdKJ220Rho). Senioris is the leader of a Titan Legio. He is the master of all of that Legio's Titans. Majoris is a rank given to those who control entire battle groups of Titans, the equivalent of being a squad leader. Since we cannot guarantee that any specific such experienced Titan will be in charge of anything, these at the least will need to be changed.

For a title stream to apply to the titan rather than the crew, I'll suggest the following. Yes, it's basically what I proposed for the base Eldar list. Really, Eldar titles should be more ... flowery and descriptive than these.

Imperial Titan titles: Recruit, Warrior, Solider, Hero, Lord, Master, Grandmaster.

While not latin-esque, they are basic, utilitarian terms that reasonably fit the Imperial mindset, with nods to what you have above aimed at crews. These could also possibly be decent 'baseline' titles that could be used regardless of race or faction.

I bring this up partly because in the beginning of the document you are entirely talking about how the Titan gains XP, etc and as you go it slowly changes over to the crew gaining them. This is confusing to me. It completely changes over when talking about crew survival, getting a new Titan, etc.

The whole section on survival could be simplified by just saying that a destroyed Titan / crew must skip the next X battles while it is being repaired, refitted, and / or new crew, where X equals it's current level. A damaged or destroyed Titan shouldn't be able to be replaced instantly. They are supposed to be ancient and rare war machines, not just another tank.



Looks good. Did you perhaps mean Exalted? If you do mean Exalted (which to me has connotations of "Good" as in anti-Evil), perhaps better might be Vile.



I've looked into them a bit and I cannot find any references to them being mentioned in 1st edition Epic. While I do own those books (I began playing Epic during 1st edition as well), they are not accessible at the moment. I guess I'll have to take your word for it that they are mentioned therein. While they might have been 'gods' they are all dead ones, having been consumed by Slaanesh or killed by infighting (varies by source). Thus they are no longer relevant. Also, 1st edition is technically set during the Horus Heresy (~30K) whereas 2nd edition is in the 41st millennium (~10K years later), so fluff from 1st edition is not necessarily relevant in 2nd. I mention that as NetEpic is based off of 2nd edition, not 1st.

Well, I'm no spring chicken either. Frankly, I imagine that the vast majority of the people who will be using this system will be over 40 at the least. Age has little to do with it.

Just to be clear, I have no objection to having a set of Eldar level titles that reference such fluff. I'd just prefer that the base Eldar list not do so, as not everyone may be using that fluff. On that note...



Actually, I intentionally removed 'Guardian' specifically because it refers to a particular Eldar unit. A Titan is not a Guardian, nor would it be crewed by one. Now these seem to bland to me for Eldar. Eldar titles should be more flowery, more ethereal. Perhaps inspired by 'Phantom' and 'Wraithbone'. Hmm, perhaps (in no particular order) some of these: Ethereal, Ghost, Specter, Spirit, Unseen, Transcendent, Haunt, Master of Wind, etc. These could also be combined with various bases to form combinations like "Unseen Warrior", "Transcendent Master", "Ghost Soldier", etc.



By "we'll keep these" you mean just for Path Titans, yes?



Sounds fairly good, though I still have doubts that Tyranids would bother with titles.



I find it rather self-contradictory here that you first say that there is no function, then go on to describe their function. Their function is basically to make some people more comfortable with the system. That is reasonable.



Perhaps simplify this by calling it the Advancement Table and remove the word 'advancement' from each entry. Then columns can be for XP range, Level, Basic Title, Imperial, Eldar (base/fluff), Path, Ork, Chaos, Tyranid. The order of those can be rearranged to suit, and other races can be added if needed.

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So does that mean that it is your intent to get a double bonus from Crew Skills? You didn't address that.



You forgot about the special abilities of said titans as well (Slime Trail, etc). I'll comment more on the weapons once I have the time to look at them in detail. Possibly Wednesday.

Oh, an additional note about Chaos Reward six. It should note that the Titan becomes a Greater Daemon Engine like the Lord of Battles and Bubonis are.

I kind of agree about the change in dealing with how Rewards are gained, but not sure I agree that they should automatically gain all of the ones up to that Level. It seems a little to 'fixed' for Chaos. For example, if I remember correctly, neither Bubonis nor Skylok have a Chaos Tail. Perhaps it should be the one from that level and one of a lower level, determined randomly if there is more than one.

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I don't think we did. When I proposed the ability, I said that I thought that it could be OP if unlimited by range. The Bissler agreed. I don't recall you posting an opinion at the time. Honestly, I don't know if it would be OP or not. Only play testing it both ways could tell. Seeing as one application applies to all weapons on the Titan at once, it should probably have the limited range. If it was not limited, it would probably have to be once per weapon. I prefer it as is.

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It's that those names are bland. Utilitarian, but bland. I think we are expending too much effort on these, particularly when they have no mechanical game effect.

I will put aside the issue of name titles for now. There's the revision to deal with for the foreseeable future. When it's time to get these rules in its own book we'll revisit them and perhaps do some polling on the groups views and wants.



No worries there. The summary has to be divided into sections with appropriate headings. I don't bother with that here since it's easier to do when I port this over to a document. At some point I'll share the master document with all of you for final editing.



While I agree in principal, I doubt many will use it given how infrequent they might actually play. It's probably better as an option.



Vile sounds good. I'm keep all this naming stuff together to discuss as a separate topic at a later date.



Those names were not level titles for titans in the older books (they never gave eldar titans titles in the old books), they are fluff mentioned in the stories that are sprinkled about, not only in those books, but in 40k books, fantasy, etc. The eldar pantheon is well established in GW fluff and the relation of things like titans and super heavies (particularly Vaul the smith god).

But as I mentioned we'll keep this topic for later since the more important part of this summary is the mechanics of the rules.



That's the problem with giving names for the eldar. I remember in the short stories in the AT books the Eldar titans were given very flowery names in "elvish" that meant something.

I have an idea for both Imperial and Eldar titans, that will require some work, but may be doable. Imperial titan name titles can be actual Latin names to indicate level or even better a list of unique names people can pick.

For example level zero imperial titan: Novitus (novice), for other levels: praefectus (commander), Magnum Magister (grand master). We could give simple utilitarian names and make them sound "Imperial" using latin versions.

For the Eldar, Tolkien actually made an "elvish" language with you could combine terms for very flowery Eldar sounding names. A list of unique ones can be made for this as well.

For example Yassen i' sun, that's elvish for "Run with the wind" or Anar Othar (Sun warrior). So we could make basic titles like you suggest and "flower them up" with Eldar words. Like this: Fea Othar (Spirit Warrior)

Believe it or not there are actual Englsih to Elvish translators online. Give me some time to play around with these and come up with a list.



Correct for the path titans only.



Your missing the point. Tyranids don't call themselves anything. The names Dominatrix, Haruspex, Malefactor, carnifex, etc are Imperial words (these names are pseudo Latin). They were named by the Imperium for ID purposes on the battlefield. So the level titles for tyranids are what others would call them. "look here comes a Hunter" or "we are doomed! The Hivelord cometh!" That's the purpose of titles for the tyanids. From the tyanids perspective there are no names, they are a hivemind with no personality, but their foes would give them names to readily identify them (yelling "big monster coming" on the radio for an artillery strike is not very informative).




It is not contradictory. I said specifically "game function". The names have no game function, as in it has no mechanical bearing on how the game is played. It doesn't impact who wins or loses. Of course, as you point out it has "a function" of making it comfortable for people, but that is not a mechanical function that impacts game play. You could say it is "in the game" (as in the written rules) and thus has a function within the game, but we'd just be engaging in semantics.

In any event we've expended a lot of time in discussing "fluff". I'll set it aside for the time being.



Agreed. The table with, for now be very simple with the pertinent information. We can worry about fluff additions later.

Primarch

First I have realized were the confusion lies. The summary state says:

"An Imperial crew may attempt to escape its titan destruction on a roll of 6 on 1d6. The crew adds a bonus of +1 to the roll per honor it has obtained. This is cumulative with skill honors."

For imperials,eldar and chaos, there are no "crew skills" for Imperials/chaos and Eldar that make it easier to escape, only upgrades that do that. So it should read:

"An Imperial/chaos crew may attempt to escape its titan destruction on a roll of 6 on 1d6. The crew adds a bonus of +1 to the roll per honor it has obtained. This is cumulative with titan upgrades."

So if you have the upgrade you would roll two dice and add any bonus for honors or upgrades. Since upgrades are intended to be "good" it is intended they "stack".

If this is clearer I will make the change.



Great! I will add them once you post them.



Okay, once I get the weapons details mentioned above I can edit the whole thing.



I thought the same thing, but I wondered about if it got too complicated. I will ponder this to see if I can come up with something not to 'wordy".

Primarch

Hi!

Okay! We'll leave as is pending playtest data.

Besides fluff issues we'll do later, and the addition of the weapons you'll post for chaos, are the mechanics of the rules acceptable to all of you so far?

Once they are I will port them over to a document (that can be edited), so people can view them and correct typos, headings etc.

Primarch

I agree! The only time I worry about fluff is when too much of it gathers around my navel. The rules amendments are what really matters here.

What did you think about my idea of increasing the honors to 100 points per increase?

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Hi!

To be frank Bissler, I would prefer no rules at all to "buy" honors. In my experience they are subject to abuse. But, across the years people have expressed a desire to have such a thing, so I guess we'll include one.

I like the idea of 100 per honor (I think 50 is too low), but I'm willing to let it be tested and then the value tweaked (or discarded).

At this point, we can speculate, but I think it is time for testing.

Primarch

Yes, they are basic level titles. That was exactly my point. They can be used as a baseline, allowing for having more detailed, more fluff-based list(s) for each race. This would give people more options than just "use the supplied level titles or don't". I'm sorry that I'm putting so much effort into this, but I'm the sort that if there's a chart that says "these are the level titles" then I use those titles. It's NOT easy to just drop and ignore them, as I see them as being a part of the rules. This is why I'm trying to get them into what I consider a reasonably useful shape. I apologize if this seems to be bashing your vision of perfection, or if anything I say comes across as rude, but there are people who think differently (than both of us even), and they should be taken into account where possible.

I'm sorry, but I cannot just put this aside for now. We actually seemed to be making some progress here and there. If you just shelve this, all of that progress will be lost and I'll just have to start over from scratch later on. That's inefficient.



You completely missed my point there. I guess I didn't explain it properly. Apologies. I have no problem with things being divided up into different sections. This is normal and expected. My problem is the shift in focus on exactly whom is receiving the Honors. You start by saying that it is the Titan that receives them (which is the correct form), and after a while only ever talk about the Crew having Honors (which is wrong). This bothers me. Crew do not receive Honors directly, only indirectly by gaining Skills. Yes, it's semantics, but words are important. If the right words are not used, the whole meaning can be lost.

Another point. The entire section where you say that a Grandmaster can requisition a Titan with two Upgrades is impossible IF the old Titan had any Upgrades, as the instant that the Titan was destroyed (and loses said Upgrades), it is no longer a Grandmaster as it loses levels equivalent to the number of Upgrades lost. Thus the only way to ever be able to get that is to have had six Crew Skill Honors and sacrifice one or two of them. Thus it's not so much a reward as being able to change one Honor for another.



Sure, it would be fine as an option.

From my perspective, if they aren't having enough battles for it to be used then they aren't having enough battles to use the XP system at all. They are just having one-shot games. Still, if X = level is too high, it could be Level / 2 or even just a flat "misses the next game".



I'm sorry, but this 'Eldar pantheon' is NEVER mentioned in any specifically 2nd edition Epic era source (if you can prove otherwise, please do so, preferably with links), therefore it is not relevant. It's just fluff that GW (and / or various writers) created later on in misguided attempts to redefine the Eldar into forms they prefer. Fluff from the fantasy game is also not relevant as it may or may not be the same universe and is certainly not the same Faction.



No, please let's keep fantasy references out of this. I like Tolkien in it's own world, but not here.

Having unique Titles for an experienced Titan would be the ideal for me. Not titles based on it's level, but just one because it's experienced. Besides, why would someone promote exactly how experienced any given Titan is? It just makes it a bigger target than it already is.

For the Tyranids, you make a good point. They would be names that others give them. I'll readily concede that. On the other hand, there is no way for another force to know how experienced, or if, a particular Bio-Titan would be. Besides, even just being a Bio-Titan, whether experienced or not, makes it enough of a threat to fire everything you have at it already.




I didn't ask what 'game' function they had. I asked about any function at all. Then you contradicted yourself. You also contradict yourself here when you say that titles have no in-game effect, when just shortly before that you state that a "Hivelord" (a level 6 Bio-Titan) would likely draw more fire than an inexperienced one would. That's a significant in-game effect. And now I'm being argumentative. Sorry.

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@Primarch: I agree about not wanting honors in standalone games. But since some people want to cheat I reckon we should make them pay through the arse for them. Plus they are incredibly powerful so well worth 100 pts I reckon.

@Magnus: I was always under the impression that GW used Tolkein's works as the source material for Warhammer and WH40K. Is that not the case?

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Hi!

Comments below



No apologies necessary Magnus, we're both striving for the same thing, just different ways of looking at things. You'd be surprised how much "friction" the original revisions caused. It's passionate stuff!

Problem with fluff is that everyone likes different things. What is "cool" for one is not so "cool" for another. I'm not sure the effort is worthwhile if in the end most players just gloss over them.

However I can see where continuing a little more in hopes of a consensus. If you are willing to tackle this, you have my support. Post a complete list of what the titles should look like per race and we'll use that as a template to hammer something out.




Ah! Now I understand. Well, I kept using them interchangeably because who exactly receives the honors? You say the titan, but can a titan acquire them with out a crew? Can a crew acquire them without a titan? One needs the other, thus the interchangeable use. Saying that the titan is the "correct" form is a design choice, its not really supported by the fluff where crews gain as much renown as the titan. Given that in Net Epic the titan is much more likely of being destroyed than the crew it would seem that the crew is who gains honor, not the titan.

I don't have much of a stake on what way to say it using crew/titan is easy enough, but if just saying "titan" is what people would prefer I have no issue with it. But I can tell you from experience people find that use Net Epic have found it less confusing to use interchangeable terms (like "crew/titans accrue honors"), I can tell you right now I will get questions on it if I just word it "titan accrues honors".



True enough. What's the solution? eliminate altogether the distinction or something else?



I think "misses the next game" is the way to go, simple, easy to remember and not excessively onerous on the players.



I did not say second edition, only short stories from the AT era and WD. They never included anything like that in the rules mechanics in any epic version. GW's fluff background is the same and is consistent throughout their IP, the eldar deities are frequently mentioned in any 40k novel, short story published. They are not a recent thing (its been present in Warhammer fantasy for many years). Like the chaos gods the eldar pantheon is the same in the 40k universe and the Fantasy universe. I have never seen any difference in the two in any GW publication. GW isn't terribly creative (most of their so called IP has been taken from elsewhere), but they tend to be consistent with certain things.

Its a moot point however, since we'll not be using those references anyway. I' liked some of your names better (particularly the Eldar Path ones).



However the names of Eldar from any GW source ARE a direct port of Tolkien elvish names. It's inescapable. GW Eldar names be they individuals or titans are no more than "camoflagued" elvish names from Tolkien fiction. If you read the short stories in the first edition codex titanicus they even tell you the proper names of several eldar units we take for granted, like:

Fian Silspciraigh - swooping hawks
The Ceifulgaithann - Wind Rider Host
Thnnascuratb - Spirit Warrior (Wraithguard)
larrascuratb- Questing Warrior (dreadnought)

The codex is laced with unique eldar names for titans and what they mean:

Fir Dinillainn (Protector of the Fallen)
Fir Iolarion (Eagles born of Fire), this is a reference to Asuryan, the Sun God and the Phoenix which is its symbol.
Fir Lirithion (hearts armored for battle).

These are all directly from the Codex Titanicus, 1st edition, the Eldar section.





As you can see you could not go through that book without tripping over a dozen Tolkien names for the eldar. In fact the actual unit name was the Eldar name when you read the individual description entries with the "english" translation right after.

All these things we're lost when second edition came out. But I confess I have always kept that view of them regardless of edition. It's how the game started.

Now we may not want to use them, and that's fine, but you can't get "flavorful" Eldar names the way GW has traditionally using without Tolkien name conventions, that's what GW eldar fluff is based on.



They would know the same way they know about other races "honor titans", by reputation. They can even look different the more they kill (they do acquire genetic enhancements), so Imperials would classify how dangerous (experienced) they are by what genetic enhancements they have, since non-experienced ones would not have them or have a certain number of them. In reality zoologist can classify a species on differences that are either trivial or undetectable to you or I, but to a trained eye would make them stand out. I view Tyranid genetic enhancements this way. They are observable in battle, thus classifiable.


Primarch