I really like these ideas, and would like to build an appendix to the Mirali list covering fighting in jungles. Ideally it would contain rules for setting up a jungle table as well as at least one scenario designed to be played on a jungle table. I'm admittedly inexperienced with creating scenarios, so I'd like some further suggestions both for jungle rules and for jungle scenarios. Then I'll cherry pick and take all the credit. Okay, maybe not.

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SG

Ghost's Paint Blog, where everything goes that isn't something else.

After serving in the Jungle ... I'd say those are generally pretty good ...

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Legion 4 "Cry Havoc, and let slip the Dogs of War !" ... "People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf."

Some thoughts (in no particular order):
-Should LVs get some allowance for Jungle movement?
-How does 5cm visibility affect Scout? (I assume negates it or perhaps scout is reduced to 10cm with 10cm visibility?)
-Perhaps you need something for representing clearings in the jungle at a limited amount per foot squared to help balance for other lists that are vehicle heavy?
-Should dozer blades be allowed to carve paths in a jungle (like the M113 in Vietnam)?

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Some replies (in order).

-LVs should not. However Sentinels have Walker, so would be able to move at half pace with a DTT.
-A good thought. Not sure.
-Working on it, likely by players placing a certain number before Objectives, then objectives must be placed in clearings. Then add enough roads to connect all clearings.
-Dozer blades (like those on Vindicators) add walker, and would be able to move at half pace with a DTT. Perhaps some provision to add Dozer Blades to other vehicles (a la DKK Trench Rails) could be given.

I'm also going to allow Skimmers to remain popped up from turn to turn so they are not forced to take DTTs at the end of every activation. This will have all the disadvantages too, like being unable to disembark while popped up and LOS considerations.

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SG

Ghost's Paint Blog, where everything goes that isn't something else.

I'm good with that


LOVE.IT


Yes option to have dozer blade add-on is great. We've discussed this previously (I think in the new Astartes thread but IANS) as free but -5cm to move. However what I meant was instead that a vehicle with a dozer can make a path for vehicles following through the jungle. They count as being in a clearing for movement but say, must be in B2B contact with the dozer as a convoy in order to count. The road is considered unprepared so doesn't give any other bonus other than counting as clear terrain for movement ONLY (visibility is still affected per your rules).

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Hmm. Interesting idea. I'll have to think about implementation. I suspect it won't add much that dozer upgrades wouldn't, but I'll look closer.

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SG

Ghost's Paint Blog, where everything goes that isn't something else.

well I'm thinking this:
Steel Legion Mechanized Company Takes 2 Chimeras with Dozers. They decide to go off road through the jungle to a clearing (normally restricted) carving a path that allowed the rest of the embarked Infantry following to move.

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Well here are some discussion points:

At what speed? Does allowing a mechanized fromation to travel at 35cm (or even 30cm) through jungle make sense? Would you leave them at half movement instead (15-17.5cm)?

Are the following vehicles really likely to be completely safe? Or should they have a small chance to bog down or throw a track on debris?

Would the vehicles with dozers take DTTs (even as Walkers)? If so, what happens if they all fail their DTTs? Are the following vehicles stranded?

My personal answers would be that the speed should be slowed, following vehicles should have to take DTTs (though as Walkers, a 1/36 chance of failure), and that I'd like to avoid stranding a formation if possible, though this is what would need to happen if the vehicles were not in contact with a dozer equipped vehicle.

So what you end up with is an effect that is functionally identical to having all the vehicles take dozer blades. Of course if you disagree with the assessments there is a difference, but I would question whether it is large enough to matter.

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SG

Ghost's Paint Blog, where everything goes that isn't something else.

Dozers go on AVs. This would enable LVs to cut through the jungle following them in formation.
Now granted most of the IG LV vehicles have Walker but I'm thinking ahead here (case in point my Arbites Enforcer Patrol Vehicle in soon to be proffered before the Synod to render judgement )

Yes it's a dangerous tactic but one that can pay off big time for lighter forces. I would expect that they are stranded until rescued and most people would take plenty of dozered AVs to compensate (as well as several caravans moving in parallel, JIC.

As you say though, not a big deal for most armies already but I can totally see how this goes into affect for scenarios (think Gaunt's Honor Guard for inspiration! =D)

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He's a lawyer and a super-villian. That's like having a shark with a bazooka!

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I see. Let me look into it, though TBH it's not at the top of the list yet.

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SG

Ghost's Paint Blog, where everything goes that isn't something else.

First Draft:

Creating a Jungle Table

Dense Terrain
All the table that is not covered in other terrain (except hills) counts as woods, while 'Woods' count as 'Jungle' (see below). All built up or clear areas need to be mounted on bases to distinguish them from the surrounding woods.

Jungle
This represents really dense and/or steeply ridged terrain that halves infantry, walker and mounted movement, and is impassable to vehicles without Walker. It is also Dangerous Terrain to Vehicles and War Engines. It provides a 4+ cover save to infantry and a 5+ cover save to vehicles, and restricts visibility to 5 cm.

Clearings
Most jungles have natural or artificial clearings at intervals. They may be from landslides, fires, explosions, or development like settlements, agriculture, logging, or mining. As the most easily defensible locations in jungles due to their open fire lanes, they often form pivotal objectives that must be taken. They also tend to have tracks between them ranging from game trails to logging roads to paved highways.

When playing the GT scenario on a jungle table, after all other terrain has been set up but before Objectives are placed, players take turns placing clearings. Clearings may or may not have settlements or other buildings in them. They should be 15-30cm across like any other terrain feature. Each player must place their first clearing in contact with their table edge, and other clearings must not be less than 30cm from another clearing. There may be no less than three clearings on each player's half of the table.

Once both players are satisfied with the setup (i.e. both players have 'passed' on their turn) or when no more clearings may be placed, roads are placed between clearings. All clearings must be connected to each other, but other than this there are no restrictions on placement - players may place by consensus or in turns.

When all clearings and roads are placed players take turns placing objectives. This occurs as normal except objectives may ONLY be placed in clearings.

Skimmers on Jungle Tables
Skimmers are ideal for crossing the dense terrain of jungles. When playing on a jungle table Skimmers may pop-up and remain popped up until you declare otherwise. This allows them to cross broad expanses of jungle by flying high over the canopy.

Dozer Blades
Any vehicle may take a Dozer Blade for +3pt. This grants the Walker ability.

Discuss.

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SG

Ghost's Paint Blog, where everything goes that isn't something else.

-Agreed on Walker.

-Scout rule should continue to apply. It represents the individuals being spread out, and individuals 'sniping' at nearby enemy who must react as usual. (and it is simpler to continue than re-write the rule).

-Agreed there should be 'clearings', though these should be restricted.

Note that hills effectively act as 'clearings' rising up out of the jungle (since they are not 'woods'). Perhaps any additional clearing should replace two sections worth of roads? Also agreed they should be placed after all other terrain, but before roads.
Another thought may be to tie the number of clearings to the number of 'jungle' pieces.

-Suggest that Objectives must be placed on roads/tracks as well as 'clear' terrain.

-Less sure about 'dozer blades as a regular rule, purely because this rapidly gets into how people have modeled things etc. Definitely a 'house rule'. As a compensation, perhaps roads/tracks should be laid in 9"-12" lengths alternately by each player.
[EDIT] Agreed that normal transport AVs can buy 'dozer' blades, but not WE or other vehicles. Also raises questions over non-Imperial vehicles - so the rule might need to be generalised.

- Skimmers should be left alone. They can still land on roads/tracks and clearings - and they do not need to pop-up etc. The whole point is that it should be difficult for vehicles.

Several of these are addressed above. Forgot to address the Scout issue, but yes, a 10cm ZoC will remain, but with 5cm visibility.

I'm picturing Dozer Blades as a broad description for any number of clearance devices, from actual dozer blades to giant saws to plasma torches and more arcane devices. Tracks should probably be laid alternately between clearings, but by consensus shouldn't cause too many arguments.

As to the Skimmers, it's a Mirali Appendix. Picture squadrons of Valkyries flying high over the jungles of Miral on their way to a hotly contested piece of hilltop named "Groxburger Hill", though no one remembers why...

Also, Popped Up vehicles cannot claim cover from terrain, so while more mobile they have the potential to become sitting ducks.

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SG

Ghost's Paint Blog, where everything goes that isn't something else.

sorry we have been cross-posting. See my revisions to 'dozer' and also that hills are de-facto clearings.

Still unhappy about revising Skimmer; while I understand your thinking, they can already land on hills and there should be sufficient roads and other 'clear' areas to permit skimmers a degree of restricted movement.

I figured we crossposted there.





As I quote this i see the problem. The intent is that 'except hills' is an exception to 'other terrain', not 'all the table'. Thus hills are in fact wooded unless defined otherwise by adding a clearing. Vietnamese hills tend to be more heavily forested than valleys, not less.



I can add a note to the effect that it represents a broad class of devices for clearing foliage. I agree that WEs should not get them, though I'm unconvinced either way as to LVs.

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SG

Ghost's Paint Blog, where everything goes that isn't something else.