The current cost of Khorne Daemonic Assault Engines is 300 for four is it not? I don't see how increasing the FF to 4+ would warrant increasing that cost, since it's hard to justify spending 300 points on them with their current FF stat line.

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Honestly Tim, why do you post an army based on a non-NetEA list here to argue your position?

Of course that list is scary, but it's composed of 90% Fearless Formations, and its got near universal High saves.

Also, the Daemon Engines are cheaper in that list.

No NetEA list would allow for such a combination, LATD even less so.

How do you justify the current Khorne engines in the LATD list? How do you use them? You must have relevant game experience to simply state something as broad as "I am not convinced by X or Y".

Please share it.

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"War is not about who is right, but about who is left". - B. Russell

......Because its a similar take on what's beng discussed in a thread about possible unit and army list changes? I mean, I would hope things lime that would be fairly obvious.

How is it similar?

LATD cannot do anything like what this other list does.

Arguably, the Daemon engines have a radically different role in those lists.

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"War is not about who is right, but about who is left". - B. Russell

You could do a similar LatD list - just substitute covens for !erzerkers
Generally principle is the same - tide of mech inf with lots of fearless CC engines shielded by garrisonned artillery. Get close up and threaten with too many units to deal with

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NetEA NetERC Human Lists Chair
NetEA Chaos + Black Legion Champion

Right I'm back and for as long as I can concentrate this afternoon I'm going to be looking at this and playng catch up with other jobs on my desk.

As others have said I directed to the World Eaters list as an example of what we could do with the KDengines rather than trying to post a long note to say the same thing.

To drop back on Frogbear's comments, I'm still not convinced that there is such a lack against FF, we are still talking about a vehicle that has 4+ RA + IS in defence and 5+FF is not the worst in the world. Yes, they are not brilliiant at FF, but with +D3 CC attacks this is where their focus is. If it can be shown that an army is never getting to use the KDengines in CC then there is an issue. At the moment I am more seeing good play by an opponent to force the FF engagement.
Expense – I’d be happy to entertain a drop in the cost of these, but I would as expect to down grade them as well, possibly dropping the Invulnerable or RA saves.
Lack of numbers – we can look at this. {Keeping the formation cost the same we can try adding additional KDE for +50pts each, ie 4 for 300pts, 5 for 350pts, 6 for 400pts}

Frightening to face = bottom half of table.
Having said that, "not dying or breaking" (good save and overall durability post-breakage and ability to recover) is an excellent ability to have. You could have a nearly gunless army in the GTS and still draw games just by still being there at the end. Always assume that was the purpose of most close combat units who don't teleport, are transported or move faster than 25 w/out infiltrator.

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I did say frightening to face, not impossible to beat.

However, first test first - Keeping the formation cost the same, try adding additional KDE for +50pts each, ie 4 for 300pts, 5 for 350pts, 6 for 400pts.

Once Manchester Mangle is out of the way, I'll give this a go. Other playtests will be most welcome.

Dropping the Invulnerable save, or the RA but giving them 3+ would be a good change.

3 saves are booooring. And this could justify dropping their points a little, which honestly would aready make them more playable. If metalshields is all they should be then lets at least make them cheaper that Leman Russes.

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"War is not about who is right, but about who is left". - B. Russell

The KDE at 300 points is laughable. Compare that formation to defiler formation at 250 points. More tactical options for less.

They could EASILY drip to 250 and i daresay it would not be an issue. A unit of 4 that MUST reach CC to be effective with no specialised way of doing that is very over rated - that is not an opinion, it is fact.

At 300 points the World Eaters list will not comply to these same stats. It just does not work.

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Correct, I recently played against thousand sons and it took a long time to roll to hit, allocate hits, roll normal save, roll ra, roll invulnerable. Plus, inv save is not a gamebreaker. I bet most people would opt not to have inv save if it'd shave a few pts off their formation cost.

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Originally, daemon engines had either RA or invulnerable save, never both. I think it was later added as a blanket rule to capture a daemonic essence and to make it consistent.

/Fredmans

Saves mean very little if the unit remains broken after being shot at once or twice.

How many people actually take these or are we all merely looking ar paper? I have taken them for testing purposes quite a bit to and at 300 points i would not again.

Theory hammer does have its limits. If you want to continue like this, move the discussion to comparing thier worth to a defiler formation.

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Great start to the review process, we all want to solve problems with the Latd/daemon engines so can we try and work together

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NetEA NetERC Human Lists Chair
NetEA Chaos + Black Legion Champion

Well you have a horde list making decisions on a unit that a non-horde list uses as one of its signature vehicles.

How an imperial guard chaos list gets to call the shots on cult vehicles is beyond me. 300 points may be ok for a hoard but it is the death for such a formation in a cc list that needs 9-10 activations minimum to be kinda competitive.

Epic is not about units, it is about activations. You may have a nice representation on paper however it means nothing if they are not a viable choice.

I think we are doing this arse backwards - thats all

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