_________________

Agreed Steve and Irisado.

Guys, in 2008 it was proposed that IC was removed Vs infantry because of the impact it had. Don't forget that any hit on a DC2 target or smaller is an auto-kill unless it has 'invulnerable'.

Increasing to 3BP just makes the Cobra more powerfull all round, which is not what we are after. This is why the only boost worth considering is to increase the range to 45cm.
IF that is insufficient, then we might consider the interesting idea about adding 'Ignore shields' which is at least appropriately targeted at titans, though it would also boost the rest of the army by permitting AT shots to be used elsewhere.

This is another case (like Banshees) where the E:A mechanics make it hard to boost a unit against a niche target without having undesirable side-effects. And at the risk of being a 'broken record' the Cobra is very effective if used correctly; Offensively with more than two working together, moved into cover and in position to sustain on the target titan, or Defensively in locations to prevent titans from advancing.

Basically as Irisado says; you must use tactics appropriate to the unit, rather than trying to make the unit fit your tactics.

I actually really like Steve's suggestion. Of making it TK(3). It substantially boosts its effectiveness against war engines while not touching its anti infantry capability at all.

Try that for a few games before throwing a load of probably in needed buffs at it.

I am less about trying to make it kill things better, than making its usage possible without suicide.

I hear what Ginger keeps repeating about having 3987654300 activations per army so the last 2 can be effective cobra activations, but the fact still remains that at 30 cm range the unit is not functioning within classical Eldar schemes, and is so difficult to use and cornercased that I would never pick it in a competitive list. That feeling is shared by most people, to the great exception of Irisado who plays them in combination with 3 Phantom titans and 4 Aspect formation on a single flank and having great success at winning that flank, and Ginger who just loves that unit and plays it in a sea of eldar popcorn as a bit of salt.

If people are afraid that the unit will slaughter their army, lets not do anything to the power of its gun, but at least make it able to shoot and move, instead of having to move and die...

_________________
"War is not about who is right, but about who is left". - B. Russell

While this is the 'average' number of TK damage points, the current range is between 2-4 damage points which allows the possibility of killing larger titans like a Warlord with a single attack. This variance heightens the drama while also increasing the potential range of damage caused. So overall I am not sure this is all that beneficial.

If you want to start throwing out abuse - lordotmilk why should any credence be given to the views of somebody who thinks the only way to play biel tan is air assault, biel tan can't deal with artillery and a force of 3 ferals and 4 death wheels isn't abusive?
Stones, glass houses.

_________________
www.epic-uk.co.uk
NetEA NetERC Human Lists Chair
NetEA Chaos + Black Legion Champion

I dont know where this is coming from. I don't believe I have thrown any abuse. If my writing is misunderstood, I aplogize.

Now concerning your criticisms of my playing skills, the points are well taken, however please note that I never said what you are putting in my mouth:

- I talked about Eldar vulnerability to barrages, and posted a strategy thread asking about how to deal with them, for until now, and probably due to my local metagame, groundslogging eldars, or even wave serpent eldars have been underperforming.

- I mentioned Air Assaults as a viable BT strategy, but I am on record of mentioning Storm Serpents also. Considering that Eldar are undeniably an assault based army, and considering there are only so many ways of getting into assault range, I don't see where is the heresy? Also please note that nowhere in my speech is there a complaint about Eldar overall performance. This Cobra issue is just that, a Cobra issue.

- Concerning the Feral/Decimator build, I think it is overpowered, and I am on record of saying as much. Concerning the Death Wheel being put in allies, my argument was not that nothing needed be done about it. But the issue for me is on the Decimator's stats and was on the DW stats, not on the BL list structure. Many armies can be composed of a lot of WEs, and are not considered abusive. Why then must BL be prevented of that fact when they have always been trademarked with WE hvy builds, especially as they are an approved list? My opinion is that it would perfectly possible to be creative in the evolution of those WEs stats and keep them in the main list. I would prefer that solution. Stating as much is nothing wrong, or have I misunderstood the practices of this forum?

Now, concerning the Cobra, how many of your tournament lists actually include one? How many of those lists have a positive record at the end of the day?

_________________
"War is not about who is right, but about who is left". - B. Russell

please, let's stop the talk, chroma has given his view on proposed changes, go away, play half a dozen games with said changes, then come back and discuss, all this argument and going round the houses isn't remotely productive

go and playtest chroma's suggestions and your own ideas (all it takes is a quick 'I'm testing out 45cm, IC on the cobra this game, okay?' before you begin) I would also say that further examples of successful cobra use would be very useful at this stage (Gavin, do you have any more positive experiences with using them?)

let's be scientific about this rather than purely philosophical!

_________________
Just some guy

My hobby/painting threads

Army Forge List Co-ordinator

_________________

I'm a bit confused about how 3BP is bad because it helps vs infantry too, yet 45cm range somehow only makes it better vs WE.

Lets face it, there is no perfect solution, but that's no reason to do nothing. We just have to pick the least objectionable compromise and that will depend on opinion regarding what individuals feel are the most important factors.

e.g. TK3 may well target WEs which some people think is important, but it makes the extremity of results issue even worse (bad to hit, high damage is more Orky than sneaky). On the other hand, 3BP goes some way to addressing the rarity of being useful, but introduces a (smaller proportionally) boost vs infantry too.

As for 45cm, it addresses the utility to some extent (in the sense that it might be able to shoot more effectively or more often) but is just as much a boost vs infantry.

Removing the IC special rule should always be considered if possible IMO, not because of balance but as its generally prudent to avoid special rules wherever possible. Of course it does boost the unit vs infantry compared to now. Those are independent but both valid factors.

In the end i think any boost is progress, but i must say i find this solution a curious one given the objection against boosting the to hit rolls in order to avoid a boost vs infantry : surely this does exactly that?

_________________
Kyrt's Battle Result Tracker (forum post is here)
Kyrt's trade list

LotM, you seem to be misrepresenting a number of things here, so let me try to correct some of your thoughts

• No matter whether you give the Cobra 3BP and double it into position to fire, or whether you march in one turn and sustain the following, the end result is the same: the Cobra is left at relatively close range to the enemy who will no doubt try to kill it - unless there are better targets available.
  So, using the Cobra will always be risky / suicidal!
  
  The only way to avoid this completely would be to give its weapon a huge range, which is totally inappropriate.
  
  
• I totally disagree that "at 30 cm range the unit is not functioning within classical Eldar schemes". A pair of Cobras that sustain within 30cm of an unshielded titan should usually expect to kill it in one go. However, I do agree that Cobras can be hard to use well, especially against someone who knows what to expect. Increasing the range should help, while increasing to 3BP will have undesirable side-effects (unless that is what you mean by "functioning within classical Eldar schemes")
  
  To that end, I maintain that you need to adapt your tactics to fit with the formations capabilities, rather than trying to make the formations fit your strategies. eg, you cannot use 'foot-sloggers' to support a strategy requiring high mobility. So I repeat that IMO the Cobra does what it is intended to do. If you spend 750 points on three of them under the current stats, they should take out a 850 point titan fairly easily providing they are used appropriately.
  
  
• The Eldar are Ok at 3000 points, which is the usual level played by the vast majority, but they tend to come into their own at 4000+ points where the player can start to play with more than one strategy in the army. This means that some formations (eg Cobras) may be less effective at 3000 points.
  
  Note, whatever the intended strategy, the Eldar usually need to have several formations of the relevant types to provide redundancy;
  • if you want to major on 'Gates, take 2-3 Storm Serpents and the static 'Gate;
  • if long-ranged shooting, then several Scorpions and Void Spinners;
  • if air assaults, several Vampires and also ground / air based AA to protect them.
  • And if you want to major on anti-titan capabilities, take 2-3 Cobras as a minimum.
  Of course adopting any of these strategies will probably mean that you have to drop those formations associated with other strategies. One of the fundemental lessons is that the Eldar army will usually support only one strategy at 3000-4000 points. If you try to do more, the army usually ends up unable to do anything.
  
  
• The Eldar are designed to be brittle formations with a big punch (and the Cobra is no different in this respect). This dictates their style of play more than many other races. Essentially they work best when 'counter-punching' - moving after the opposition has committed forces to particular locations and objectives. In the case of the Cobra, their main target (titans) usually move late in the turn meaning that the Cobras usually need to move later still - hence the need for an 'activation advantage', and by extrapolation a tendency towards 'popcorn' style armies.
  
  That said, I have been playing in E-UK competitions over 7+ years and my 'popcorn' lists have only been used twice (this year). If you check out my armies in the E-UK tournaments, you will find they are usually ~11-12 activations each with widely different compositions and strategies.
  
  
• Regarding their vulnerability to barrages, the Eldar are expected to be brittle 'soap bubbles' after all.
  This vulnerability to BMs is something the enemy should exploit and also something the Eldar player must work around, whether by pre-emptive strikes (artillery, bombing, teleporting or assault) or by other tactics (formation positioning, cover, transport or timely marshalling).

Finally, if you check the E-UK results, you will find that the Eldar are just about the most balanced army going, winning, drawing and losing about the same number of games. To me that suggests that the Eldar need very little 'tweaking' - and yes it may well mean there are a few sub-par formations (Banshees etc)

The Eldar are probably the most flexible army in the game with a huge variety of different styles of play. They are potentially harder to use than many races, and the key thing to learn is timing; when to change from avoiding contact to a more aggressive style. However they can be most rewarding when the strategy pays off, especially where it is one of the harder ones.

Sorry, but this is not correct. IC is vital to ensure the Cobra can hit and destroy enemy titans by sustaining with 2BP weapons, whilst also minimising the impact against enemy infantry. The 2008 changes removed IC against infantry targets to reduce that impact further.

Increasing to 3BP, especially with IC, gives a huge all round improvement to the Cobra's shooting against all targets, especially as doubling and shooting becomes more viable (this is a 50% boost against vehicles and a 33% boost against infanrty). Also don't forget that these are TK shots under the template, so this represents a 17% increase in the number of dead targets.

IC is needed. No other TK weapons are so sensitive to to-hit modifiers as the Cobra is.

Ah, possibly Ry. Though it's probably also down to me spending most of my days watering and working on fruit trees here at the permaculture farm, evidently they're affecting my bananas.... uh I mean language.

Thank you for your very detailed post.

Firstly, when i mentioned your popcorn builds, I really did not mean any offense. I was actually trying to bring some humor on the debate, and accentuating my displeasure at the Cobra by exaggerating the builds in which people are (relatively) ok with it.

Concerning your comments on eldar, they are all very releveant thank you. My concern over indirect fire however is not that Eldars cant handle it. It was more around the fact that people over here tend to play a lot of it when they can and especially against Eldar, making ground based builds weaker than Storm Serpent/Vampire builds. No worries though, I will definitely try Rug's army build a couple times and see if playing 20+ WS/falcons changes the trend.

Now concerning the Cobra, I believe that with a 45 cm range, you will be able to play it with the pop-up attack if you want to sacrifice the added bonus of sustaining, allowing it to have a lot more survivability than what it currently offers. Indeed, at 30 cm range, even behind a piece of terrain, it's too easy for opponents to find LOS and kill it, either before he gets to activate, or after, thereby guranteeing a dead cobra on turn 2. At 45 cm, the pop up will be a lot more viable, and i fell it would therefore fulfil its design intent much better in gameplay, while not increasing its killing power, which is adequately random but terrifying.

If those 45 cms cannot obtain a consensual support, I would settle for the 3 BP, and just settle with it killing something more certainly with the current gameplay.

In case it was not clear, the 45 cm change has my favour.

The removal of the special IC rule, in favour of a full IC rule is more to get rid of a game anomaly, and get more verstility to the unit, which arguably is not absolutely necessary.

_________________
"War is not about who is right, but about who is left". - B. Russell