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Is Epic lagging behind?
adam77
 Post subject: Re: Is Epic lagging behind?
PostPosted: Tue Sep 11, 2012 2:57 am 
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Less structure/complexity will give the whole thing a shot in the arm.

Instead of four layers:
ERC (5) -> AC (~8) -> Sub-champ (10+) -> Community

Have just two:
ERC (max9) -> Community

ERC votes on decisions.
Community votes on ERC membership.

Each ERC member has 1 or more roles (e.g. Ork AC) and is expected to be active.
('sub-championing' becomes ad-hoc delegation by an ERC member to someone in the community)
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Mephiston
 Post subject: Re: Is Epic lagging behind?
PostPosted: Tue Sep 11, 2012 9:06 am 
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Can I just say that it has been less than a year since the entire netERC was shaken up, and in truth probably only 6 months since the new format bedded in, if that.

I think you need to give this iteration a little more time before throwing it all away and starting again.
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Irisado
 Post subject: Re: Is Epic lagging behind?
PostPosted: Tue Sep 11, 2012 9:54 am 
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madd0ct0r wrote:
i think all the process needs is more people. Specifically more students (they have the time).


That's a generalisation. I remember when I was an undergraduate student I had no time whatsoever, and now as a PhD student, I certainly don't have the time to play with any sort of regularity, and that's 40K, let alone Epic.

On the topic of elections, I think this is getting out of hand. This is a private forum, not a democratic institution, yet some seem to be suggesting that it should be structured in such a way as to be a first past the post election system. I really don't think that this is a good idea at all.

The whole point of the ERC, ACs, and other people with ranks was, I thought, that they were not only trusted with list development, but also with being good judges of the membership. It is for the ACs, and other ranked forum members to suggest who should replace them if they can no longer continue the job in my opinion. We don't need elections or votes.

Now, if you want to formalise what constitutes an active AC, and make that part of the rules, then by all means go ahead. If said AC doesn't live up to those rules, then it is up to the other ACs, ERC, whoever, to deal with this.

Why not ask CS to create a board which is only accessible to ERC, ACs etc to thrash all of this out if it's really proving to be such a major issue?

Finally, lists don't need to be changed all the time, so the idea that an AC isn't doing his job if a list isn't reviewed annually is, in my opinion, misplaced.

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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Re: Is Epic lagging behind?
PostPosted: Tue Sep 11, 2012 10:36 am 
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Mephiston wrote:
Can I just say that it has been less than a year since the entire netERC was shaken up, and in truth probably only 6 months since the new format bedded in, if that.

I think you need to give this iteration a little more time before throwing it all away and starting again.

Forgive me, but you don't play netea lists. Your level of frustration is naturally going to be a lot lower, as a detached observer.

Irisado - some champions haven't done anything of paricular note in years, whether revisions to established lists or pushing experimental lists forwards to balanced status. They just sit there preventing anyone else from taking their spot and achieving some actual results.

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LordotMilk
 Post subject: Re: Is Epic lagging behind?
PostPosted: Tue Sep 11, 2012 11:01 am 
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Evil and Chaos wrote:
Forgive me, but you don't play netea lists. Your level of frustration is naturally going to be a lot lower, as a detached observer.


+1

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LordotMilk
 Post subject: Re: Is Epic lagging behind?
PostPosted: Tue Sep 11, 2012 11:20 am 
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Irisado wrote:
I certainly don't have the time to play with any sort of regularity, and that's 40K, let alone Epic.

Finally, lists don't need to be changed all the time, so the idea that an AC isn't doing his job if a list isn't reviewed annually is, in my opinion, misplaced.[/color]


As you just stated, you barely play this game. No wonder you are so opposed to any kind of change. I happen to play Epic every week, and every week the unmovability of obvious issues and the non finishing of lists.

Honestly, if you wish to have one set of rules on which to cling on and never feel out of phase, and that's more important to you than having perfectly balanced lapproved lists which allow to play with all the models, just play with the GW rulebook. It will never change and requires nothing from the community.

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Mephiston
 Post subject: Re: Is Epic lagging behind?
PostPosted: Tue Sep 11, 2012 11:25 am 
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Evil and Chaos wrote:
Mephiston wrote:
Can I just say that it has been less than a year since the entire netERC was shaken up, and in truth probably only 6 months since the new format bedded in, if that.

I think you need to give this iteration a little more time before throwing it all away and starting again.

Forgive me, but you don't play netea lists. Your level of frustration is naturally going to be a lot lower, as a detached observer.


And this is supposed to encourage me to start up again?

You know what E&C, you are the main reason I can't be arsed anymore.
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Steve54
 Post subject: Re: Is Epic lagging behind?
PostPosted: Tue Sep 11, 2012 11:30 am 
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2012
- netEA website established
- armylist compendium published
- schedule for annual compendium updates established
- ongoing reviews or significant developments going on for at least 8 races

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Irisado
 Post subject: Re: Is Epic lagging behind?
PostPosted: Tue Sep 11, 2012 11:38 am 
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Evil and Chaos wrote:
Irisado - some champions haven't done anything of paricular note in years, whether revisions to established lists or pushing experimental lists forwards to balanced status. They just sit there preventing anyone else from taking their spot and achieving some actual results.


As I say, this sort of thing needs to be discussed by the ACs, ERC, whoever, in their own private board. This sort of public discussion isn't really helpful in my opinion.

LordotMilk wrote:
As you just stated, you barely play this game. No wonder you are so opposed to any kind of change. I happen to play Epic every week, and every week the unmovability of obvious issues and the non finishing of lists.


One thing that turned me off from getting involved in the tournament scene, and getting too heavily involved in the game is the fact that there are too many changes, too many sets of rules, and too many unproductive discussions about needless rule changes. If there were greater rules stability, and more people were playing to the same set of rules, I'd be more inclined to turn up to a tournament and play more.

To say that I barely play the game is a slight misrepresentation. I barely play the game at the moment. There is a difference ;).

Quote:
Honestly, if you wish to have one set of rules on which to cling on and never feel out of phase, and that's more important to you than having perfectly balanced lapproved lists which allow to play with all the models, just play with the GW rulebook. It will never change and requires nothing from the community.


There are certain changes which I think are worth making (see the LatD discussion regarding Daemon Engines which you have participated in as an example). My disagreement is with this idea that there needs to be constant change on an annual basis. This is unnecessary in my view, and makes life very difficult for new players, and those who don't play very often for whatever reason.

The idea that changes improve the balance by default is also very debatable. For example, I think that some of the proposed changes to the Cobra make it too effective, as you well know ;). As a result, it's a sweeping generalisation to assume that making changes will lead to perfect balance. Epic is well balanced on the whole as it stands, and perfect balance is, in any case, a myth.

As a final note, we are not an equivalent of a GW design team, and nor should we aspire to be in my opinion.

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Last edited by Irisado on Tue Sep 11, 2012 11:48 am, edited 4 times in total.

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Spectrar Ghost
 Post subject: Re: Is Epic lagging behind?
PostPosted: Tue Sep 11, 2012 11:38 am 
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Can we please stop with the personal attacks?

We all enjoy the hobby in our own way. Lashing out at others won't move this discussion forward - quite the opposite, in fact.

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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Re: Is Epic lagging behind?
PostPosted: Tue Sep 11, 2012 11:43 am 
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Mephiston wrote:
Evil and Chaos wrote:
Mephiston wrote:
Can I just say that it has been less than a year since the entire netERC was shaken up, and in truth probably only 6 months since the new format bedded in, if that.

I think you need to give this iteration a little more time before throwing it all away and starting again.

Forgive me, but you don't play netea lists. Your level of frustration is naturally going to be a lot lower, as a detached observer.


And this is supposed to encourage me to start up again?

You know what E&C, you are the main reason I can't be arsed anymore.

Pull the other one - you stopped playing netea lists years ago and the likelihood of you ever starting again is absolutely minimal, as you've said yourself a bunch of times.

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Spectrar Ghost
 Post subject: Re: Is Epic lagging behind?
PostPosted: Tue Sep 11, 2012 11:46 am 
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Ugh.

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Spectrar Ghost
 Post subject: Re: Is Epic lagging behind?
PostPosted: Tue Sep 11, 2012 11:55 am 
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Meph is an active member of TacComs and a frequent contributor to development discussions. He gets a say; that's how community development works.

Ben, you yourself said you would no longer paricipate in list development for NetEA. Would you like your own opinions discounted on that basis?

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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Re: Is Epic lagging behind?
PostPosted: Tue Sep 11, 2012 11:57 am 
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I'd like to participate and develop / playtest lists again if the obvious idleness at the top gets dealt with.

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Spectrar Ghost
 Post subject: Re: Is Epic lagging behind?
PostPosted: Tue Sep 11, 2012 11:59 am 
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And you think attacking a previous NetERC member who stepped down to allow someone with more time to do the job will help?

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