I do not see daemonic pact as a flavour add for the decimator.

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Can we please just TEST the changes before ranting about them and throwing out accusations.

I cannot see the benefits of allowing a DPact, daemons won't shield from AT hits or prevent suppression as they don't shoot and won't help with hackdowns as they will have disappeared when the unit breaks - which if anything will happen easier as now the formation will be susceptible to AP with worse saves.

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I was thinking Greater Daemons. But perhaps not the best idea.

Simply removing fearless still sounds good to me, perhaps just adding another upgrade to the Formation, like LRs, or the old posssibility of a Wheel.

One would then have to support Decimators in play, which sounds good to me considering the loadout.

Also, in this instance and for this proposed change, I am not quite certain what you want people to test? Decimators will still behave the same way they always have behaved, whether as allies or as elite choices. And you can still make viable lists without any Decimators. So what is there to test?

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The list structure - does it improve activation count? Too much

GD - are they now viable in a list?

Daemons - are they improved, would you take them more?

Decimators - are they a competitive choice vs ferals/wheels?

Is the list more competitive, too good? + are there more pickable units?

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The other changes look good. I will definitely try the new Daemomn rules next time around.


Concerning the Decimators, even if the Decimator was to be a comparable choice to the Wheels and Ferals, which it isn't, this would not remove the main objection to the change, which is that you are invalidating miniature compositions for the army which have been valid for years, without truly looking for alternatives.

Dumping everything in allies is not a good solution. It's a terrible solution. it's only advantage is that it's easy. But putting Decimators in allies would be like putting Thunderhawks in Aliies for codex marines. Or shadowswords in allies for the Guard. Each time easy, and alright concerning perhaps overplayed units, but basically screwing years of model collecting and painting, and taking away huge chunks of flavor from the list.

The Assault company is one of the things that makes Black Legion so cool. Taking the Wheel away was a huge blow to that coolness, and I personally already think it was abusive. Removing the Decimator is a fatal blow for flavor. the army loses specificity and character. why play BL when the Cult legions are so much more flavorful? With Assault companys the BL has a real heavy duty flavor.

Please try alternate stats/pricing/unit comp before proposing such a radical change!

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I'd agree with model/collection complaint if it was proposed to remove the decimator from the list. Its not, all that's proposed is moving to allies

I've never heard any complaints about the wheel moving as people hated facing 6 fast WEs

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Alright, well I am officially complaining that the Wheel moved to allies.

For that matter I have not read or heard that so many Fearless WEs was being complained about either. You are the first to mention it as that being the problem.

So the only argument for Decimators moving to allies over any alternative is: I am the Champ and I like that option better than anything else?

Fantastic.

If Fearless is the issue, just take Fearless off them and be done with it. If having too many individual WE's is the issue, just force purchase by twos or threes. If Break point is the issue, just add upgrade options.

Please don't barricade yourself in a horrible horrible option.

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Firstly calm youself down

I'd question how much you play if you can't see the problem with basically 6 warhounds. The SM list was changed to prevent 4.

The change list is there for testing, please test it. I won't take any notice of anything else

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I am very calm. Yet I see no reason to let the issue go, as I strongly disagree with that review option.

Of course there are issues with WE heavy lists and especially fast WEs. I just think alternatives could have been found rather than burying units in the allies section.

For the record I have been playing Epic on and off for 20 years and EA at least once a month for the past 5 years. I am committee member of a gaming group of more than 20 people which have regular EA games. I have not intervened much on these forums for many different reasons, mostly because we are very happy of most of the review options taken, and the work done by the NetERC.

Yet the proposed further lapidation of the BL list has caused concern and thats why I am arguing against it. Though I understand the concern you have, I cannot understand why you would not even consider alternative solutions.

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Stop making antagonistic remarks then.

A wide range of concerns+solutions have been debated on the forum for months, this is the result. What makes the 2013 compendium will be decided by those who test the list.

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Steve

I know that you mentioned that Decimators were taken in groups however how effective were those builds? Where were they used, under what rules and how well did the players do?

I see it much like the SM terminator debate - i could take 10 formations! However you never do for some reason...

I just think that the Decimator decision is a little knee jerk due to possibly (i have not seen it) a few loud voices who have possibly never layed with the list or did not know how to defeat a Decimator (?)

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Hi,

one member of our gaming group takes two decimators as one formation in his BL army plus 2 death wheel. It was no so much fun to play against it.. the decimators have a very good load out at shorter range..

Steve generally holds votes for the big decisions. And the little ones, actually.

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Fair enough.

If I could delve further;
1. what was 'not fun' about it?
2. what was the rest of the list made up of?
3. Was it competitive?

I have seen opponents immediately get on the verbal attack after seeing Death Wheel used properly to maim and then support an assault, and usually because they have no answer for it - at the time. I attribute this the same with Decimators.

Further questions, how is that build different than coming up against the IG with squads of SHT and long range support?

Are poeople seeing too much of these (aka SM Warhounds and Thunderhawks) or are these because people do not see the builds enough and therefore are not used to defeating them?

Fair questions I hope.

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Hi,

1. not fun means it was hard to find something against the decimators. 6 BP MW IC is really hard in fearless superhaevy tanks. They roll over the battlefield ignoring most of the fire they get and blasting holes in your army.. With SM you have not much against it. But maybe I'm just complaining.. ;-)

2. he backed up his force with marines, terminators, raptors and air force.

3. the list was competitive.. he played successful at our tournement.

The BL is defferent to lets say minervans, because he had a better strategie roll (4+ to 2+) and initiative 1+. So most of the action rolls are sucessful. A minervan SHT comp. can be destroyed by teleporting terminators. Teleporting something near a squadron of decimators is like tossing a coin. (you fail your SR and the 6BP MW IC barrage breaks or destroys your terminators)

Decimators alone are ok.. you are able to break them with 3 BM.