If the above comes true then Epic really feels ancient.

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I don't see how you can say that when you have no idea what many of the 'new' items are+ only SM+Eldar are really affected

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virtually everything on that list could be covered by 'counts as' if models miraculously became available I'm sure....

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My hobby/painting threads

Army Forge List Co-ordinator

My life without the Space Marine Skyshatter cannon would be, well.... shattered

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Let us playtest like the Greeks of old... You know the ones I mean

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When taken in combination with things that Epic is already lacking, the "leaving behind" is pretty big I think.

To take a post I made earlier in this thread, these were units that I personally felt are already noticable by their absence from the Codex-adherent Marine lists, which would probably be present if the/a Marine list were re-released today by GW:

For Marines, IMO most of the following would probably make the cut:
- Assault Terminators
- Stormtalon Gunship
- Land Speeder Storm
- Scout Bikes
- Thunderfire Cannon
- Thunderhawk Transporter
- A second Land Raider variant (likely Crusader) would arguably also make the cut.


Now after these **rumoured** releases we'd also be looking at the following being missing:
- Space Marine Land Avenger - My guess is a medium tank due to multiple variants being released.
- Space Marine Praetor Warmachine - I'm totally guessing but it might be a Knight. Certainly something big because it's plastic.
- Space Marine Skyshatter Cannon - AA Tracked gun
- Space Marine Gale Claw Supremacy Fighter - Anti-aircraft fighter craft

I think it's hard to argue that all of those don't make the notability cut for inclusion into Epic, if SG were properly funded, most of them directly into a Codex Astartes list (or some form thereof - It's not hard to imagine Codex Armoured, Codex Airbourne, Codex Infantry, specialist lists for example). There are other units I haven't listed here that would certainly find homes in variant style lists too.

Similar things are happening to most of the other armies by stages.

Now, you can argue about whether or not it's a bad thing that Epic's being left behind, but that it *is* being left being is rather obvious I think.

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I think making Codex Armoured, Codex Airbourne etc is a good idea as it is. Just make sure they don't make the Codex Astartes list obsolete. The Land Avenger (what a fantastically stupid name, btw) might make a good centerpiece for an Armoured list, while the Skyshatter could fit in an infantry list or maybe in a siege list with the Thunderfire.

By the way, with the Gale Claw coming later, why not just make the Storm Talon a skimmer? Valkyries and Vultures are the precedent, they are skimmers in epic even if they've always been flyers in 40k? It looks like a skimmer and fights like one too, IMHO.


Hmm. Who are naming these things? Land Avenger? A pair of aircraft named Storm Talon and Gale Claw? Sigh.

What would be more interesting would be to use the Typhoon weapon option and suddenly it's no longer a particularly good AA fighter, it's just a useful looking ground attack aircraft... thereby taking the place of the Marauder Bomber.

The Gale Claw (assuming it's real) would become the Thunderbolt replacement.


*shrug* Avenger, Vindicator, Predator. All look pretty similar to me.


*shrug*
It already looks long in the tooth.

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Currently doing a plastic scenery kickstarter

That's one way, but the Storm Talon is so fantastically wrong-looking for an actual aircraft.



"Avenger" is fine. "Land Raider", "Land Speeder" are cool names. "Land Avenger" is just retarded. Sky Burrower? Sea Economist?



In-game, not in fluff. Don't make a new list that can do all the current list can and more.

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Well lets "list darwinism" run its course.
If the new lists with the current/new Wh40k stuff becomes more popular then the current list(s) will fall out of favour.
And if not it doesn't hurt either.

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I agree with this.

I've only scan read some of this thread (sorry) but there's a vast spectrum of opinion between people posting here as to what EpicA and the lists should be, and that's fine. People want different things and ideally the game and lists should be able to cater to different things. If new versions are created they should still be balanced and have pluses and minuses and a new style SM list should play fine an old SM list even if it has a bit more choice.

For one thing (cross-posting this paragraph from the other related thread):
Aside from less allies one noticeable disadvantage of the proposed new SM list that no-one has explicitly commented on yet would be that it lacks cheap formations with the minimum decent formation costing 200 rather than 150 or 175 and so it would likely have maybe 1 formation less in 1 3,000 list on average. Many Codex Astartes lists take 1-2 Scout formations, sometimes with a Razorback added so 150-175 points. They also have 175 point Thunderbolts available rather than 200 point Storm Talons. In the proposed list Scouts would still be possible, but I don’t see that many people paying 150 for 4 Scouts on foot much - without free transports they would be a lot less obviously good. With having to pay 100 extra for Land Speeder Storms they would cost 250, the same as Devestators, but have the advantages of all 2 more units, skimmer and faster moving, covering a larger area with scout and 4+ and 5+ saves rather than 4+ and 6+. Still worth taking and using, but in a different way to now.


I mostly agree with this, though I'd go for the Redeemer instead of the Crusader and possibly leave the Scout Bikes out.

The point about a stand of Assault Terminators is that they have zero ranged weapons or FF. Yes they are better in CC, but it's more crucially what they can't do that makes them different. Currently if we use Assault Terminators models having to count them as Terminators it's like we're being asked to use Devestators as Assault Marines (in terms of their offensive capabilities, leaving aside extra speed from jump packs).

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What about an "Epic modernisation project".

An entirely separate (albeit largely overlapping in form) set of lists, balanced against each other, but with no obligation to be balanced against the "classic" lists.

Classic players need never be troubled by Land Raider Redeemers, and modern players need not get frustrated with Epic looking like the 40k game did in 1999.

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Given the problems in developing one set of lists I can't see how doing 2 parallel sets of lists is really a realistic option

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