That's splitting hairs, if you're going to call out ACs as 'most' not doing their job and lobby for replacement you should be careful what you wish for. Under every guideline I've seen drafted both ACs and list champions (that's you) need to play epic and more importantly playtest their list.
Endlessly vomiting out lists just dilutes development

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As does calling for the addittion of every new unit GW dreams up to lists that are already finished.

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I think to a certain extent one thing breeds the other - people want the new units, and therefore create new lists with them included.

Perhaps if adding new units to lists were easier...

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Adding new units to new lists is very easy (as long as the new list brings something beneficial to the game).
Wanting to add new units to lists that are finished is not easy and really isn't necessary.

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Just call me Steve.

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Want to play Iron Warriors in Epic Armageddon? Click HERE
Some of my Armies.
My Hobby site.

Lists get endlessly vomited because most of the Champions aren't doing much other than sitting on their blue names.

So the community wind up doing darwinian evolution of lists instead of directed, coordinated playtesting.

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Currently doing a plastic scenery kickstarter

Going back to basics with this, what do people feel is actually bad about epic 'lagging behind'?

are they concerned that it will put potential new players off? (ie. "I was planning an army of stormtalons, ironclad dreadnoughts, and massive spartan landraiders, but don't exist in the core game of epic, forget it then!")

is the concern that existing players will become fed up? (ie. "I'm a bit fed up of not having stormtalons and necron nightscythes, maybe I'll go and play something else for a change")

is it simply a feeling that epic should be completely representative of 40k at 6mm scale?

is it something else?

my own personal experience since getting back into 6mm gaming after a 15 year break, has been that everything is great..... there are guys making new models all the time, currently there are lists around that make use of virtually every model available.....

I've been playing steel legion almost every week for the past year or so, I've taken them at 3 tournaments and I certainly don't feel bored with them yet.... I feel like I haven't scratched the surface of what the list can do, and I'm not changing to another army until I win an EUK championship point!!

when people come over and have a look at what we're playing, the vast majority of 40k kids go 'wow you have TWO warhounds?? that's awesome!' rather than 'oh you aren't using long barreled hyper lasers on the tbolts? well I certainly won't be interested a minute longer, I bid you good day sir!'

I think that epic is doing fine, I appreciate that my opinion is just one person's experience, so I'm wondering how everyone else feels? I like the fact that every new toy GW prodces isn't immediately shoehorned into epic the way it is with 40k and WFB, I love the GAME, I think it's a fun and balanced game which is still developing and growing....

I wouldn't say it's lagging behind, more patiently waiting and watching....

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I was discussing Epic with a potentially interested chap last week... he was extremely put out by the idea that Fire Prisms in EUK tournaments have AA shots. *shrug*


Epic's already looking a bit dated, and that'll continue as time goes on.
Another few years worth of Codex releases, and the Necrons won't be the only army that looks rather old fashioned.

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Can't tell if parody or not?

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Neither could I. The fact that Fire Prisms had AA shots seemed to mortally offend him. People are strange.

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Currently doing a plastic scenery kickstarter

The best part is when 40k players see that Wave Serpents have RA and Falcons do not and go "wha...?"

perhaps he's not 'ready' for epic yet? I was very put out when I first got the rulebook that a baneblade had the same save as a leman russ..... I got over it..... if your reason for not wanting to play epic is because it doesn't slavishly follow 40k fashion, then that's sad, but perhaps it's not 'for you'?



I just don't think that the community can keep up with GW in terms of new fluff and units, GW in most cases aren't releasing things to fill a hole (storm talon aside) they're just releasing variants of variants.... I've already got enough spanners in my toolbox, I don't need more.....

I would certainly be in favour of creating the units and models for use in epic, but it's like using a wrench to knock a nail into a wall, the 40k universe is developed as a selling ground for GW toys, the epic universe was developed as a game, it has a fundamentally diferent philosophy on list building to 40k....so if people want to use new toys, they have to use, or create, yet another variant list

I liked Ulrik's suggestion of having a standard list with different modules, so for example siege blood angels wouldn't be as effective as siege imperial fists for example

The problem with this approach is that you have to essentially undo all of the great work that has been done so far....

Maybe the army champions with solid lists need to start focusing on getting more new stuff into the game, but right now, I think a lot of people are quite happy with epic the way it is.

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Minor variants don't generally meet the notability criteria for Epic. Ie: There are no calls to put extra Chimera gun variants into the Steel Legion armylist.

It's totally new stuff that is starting to make Epic look dated.

My "notability" criteria is generally to gauge what new units would get added if GW released a new version of Epic today (assuming it's properly funded).

For Marines, IMO most of the following would probably make the cut:
- Assault Terminators
- Stormtalon Gunship
- Land Speeder Storm
- Scout Bikes
- Thunderfire Cannon
- Thunderhawk Transporter
- A second Land Raider variant (likely Crusader) would arguably also make the cut.


Stuff that would not make the cut would IMO include:
- Sternguard/Vanguard Veterans,
- Contemptor / Ironclad / Siege / Venerable Dreadnoughts
- Rapier Laser Destroyers
- Tarantulas / Static Hyperios
- Variant weapon drop pods
- Variant weapon Predators / Land Raiders / Razorbacks / Rhinos
- Storm Eagle, Caestus Assault Ram, Land Speeder Tempest

Most of that lot would fit well in variant army lists though.

What a new edition might even see would be the effective dissolution of a Codex Astartes list, or rather its splitting up into several sub-lists: Codex Astartes Tank List, Codex Astartes Air Assault List, Codex Astartes Land Attack list, etc.

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I agree that they probably would be added, however comments on specifics below
- Assault Terminators - existing terminators are already assault monsters and pretty handy at shooting too, proxies/counts as is sufficient for these
- Stormtalon Gunship - for a sense of complete chapter autonomy I agree, still loathe the model though
- Land Speeder Storm
- Scout Bikes - don't disagree on either of the scout units
- Thunderfire Cannon - no personal objection to this either
- Thunderhawk Transporter - counts-as landing craft?
- A second Land Raider variant (likely Crusader) would arguably also make the cut.- agreed

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What do you think of my idea to simply create a second Codex Astartes list with the above units and no titans/navy? (In the Space Marines subforum.) I haven't listed Assault Termies, Scout Bikes or THawk Transporter, but the exact units included isn't that important. The main point is to create a list with new/modern units and no titans/navy, which can coexist with the existing (balanced, stable) Codex Astartes (Armageddon) list.

Personally, I think that this is not only the best way forwards, but in many ways, the only way forwards (leaving aside the discussion on exactly which units are included and which are not).

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