I would support testing with 5+ & 4+ simultaneously, with people reporting what difference the 0.3 extra hits made to their games.

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Is that 0.3 for just a single aircraft or a squadron of two?

I don't think it's going to massively affect every game, it's quite situational really..... I beat Si Jenkins at open war largely due to getting a lucky critical on his landing craft, last week I managed a draw against dptdexys thanks to my shooting a thawk full of terminators down with a lucky critical, in both cases it was eggs in baskets, but increasing interceptor power makes those baskets a bigger risk....

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Dobbsy:
That is for a squadron of 2 aircraft, and only when within 15cm.


To show the average AA hit stats when Intercepting or CAP'ing again:

Thunderbolt Squadron @30cm - 1 hit
Stormtalon Squadron @30cm - 1 hit

Thunderbolt Squadron @15cm - 2 hits
Stormtalon Squadron @15cm - 2.33 hits.


Also, ground attack average hits :

Thunderbolt Squadron AP only - 1.66 hits
Stormtalon Squadron AP only - 2 hits

Thunderbolt Squadron AT only - 1.33 hits
Stormtalon Squadron AT only - 1 hit

Thunderbolt Squadron mixed LV target - 2.66 hits
Stormtalon Squadron mixed LV target - 2 hits

So, a bit better at AP, a bit worse at AT, and worse again at mixed or LV formations.

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Some other comparisons based on how tough to kill a squadron are using basic armour stats, arranged by points-per-plane:

50pts each - Fighta-Bommer Squadron (3) - generates 1.5 AA hits - 3.5 hits required to kill
75pts each - Barracuda Fighter Squadron (2) - generates 1.66 AA hits - 2.33 hits required to kill
75pts each - Hellblade Squadron (3) - generates 3 AA hits - 3.5 hits required to kill
87.5pts each - Thunderbolt Squadron (2) - generates 2 AA hits - 2.33 hits required to kill
100 pts each - Nightwing Squadron (3) - generates 3 AA hits - 6 hits required to kill
100pts each - Raven Fighter Squadron (2) - generates 1 AA hit & 1 AA Lance hit - 4 hits required to kill
112.5pts each - Stormtalon Squadron (2) - generates 2.33 AA hits - 2.66 hits required to kill

So it'd be the most expensive fighter aircraft on a per-plane basis, but not the best performing plane (that honour goes to Nightwings or Ravens depending on your target).

Note that Nightwings and Ravens never have to jink and lose their shots because their basic save is 4+.




Here's the same thing, but arranged by Squadron cost instead of per-plane cost:

150pts - Fighta-Bommer Squadron (3) - generates 1.5 AA hits - 3.5 hits required to kill
15pts - Barracuda Fighter Squadron (2) - generates 1.66 AA hits - 2.33 hits required to kill
175pts - Thunderbolt Squadron (2) - generates 2 AA hits - 2.33 hits required to kill
200pts - Raven Fighter Squadron (2) - generates 1 AA hit & 1 AA Lance hit - 4 hits required to kill
225pts - Hellblade Squadron (3) - generates 3 AA hits - 3.5 hits required to kill
225pts - Stormtalon Squadron (2) - generates 2.33 AA hits - 2.66 hits required to kill
300 pts - Nightwing Squadron (3) - generates 3 AA hits - 6 hits required to kill


So, there it sits a bit low on the kill performance, and also looks notably vulnerable compared to every other 200-300pt aircraft formation.

Again, note that Ravens and Nightwings never have to jink due to their 4+ basic save.

Also noteworthy, EUK Hellblade Squadrons are only 200pts, generate only 2 AA hits, but have 30cm instead of 15cm range (making them more reliable in the transport interception role).

EUK Thunderbolt Squadrons are 150pts.

All stats assume +1 to-hit for Intercepting or CAP activations.



So what does all that stat crunching tell us?
225pt Stormtalon Squadrons would quite likely be fairly underwhelming, even with their 0.3 extra AA hits over a Thunderbolt Squadron. Compared to other Squadrons in their points bracket, they don't kill as much, are worse at AA, sometimes will lose their shots due to being forced to jink, and they'll die easier.

Still, out of respect for all the "4+ to-hit is scary" comments, I'd suggest starting playtesting at 225pts and going down to 200pts after a few months of playtesting, should 225pts prove too much.

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225pts instead of 200pts would cover Iniative 1+

Note that with this caluclation a Squadron of Nightwings or Hellblades would outright kill a Storm Talon Squadron. Even Ravens and Thunderbolts have a good chance with this.

And for the record: +1 for removing the +1 for Intercept. Even more so if this wlil open the chance to give the Thunderbolt WYSIWYG stats.

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Nah I think starting at 200 is fine. That's 25 points more per squadron than the current TBs in the Codex list. 50 points more than TBs is going a bit far.

Test to see.

For the AA4+ or AA5+ discussion i opened a thread here:
viewtopic.php?f=69&t=23579

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After going through the varous threads about this plane here's what I'd like to propose:

Space Marine Storm Talon Gunship
Type Speed Armour CloseCombat Firefight
Aircraft Fighter 5+ n/a n/a
Weapon Range Firepower Notes
Twin Assault Cannon 15cm AP4+/AT4+/AA5+ Forward Arc
Twin Heavy Bolter 30cm AP4+/AA5+ Fixed Forward Arc

Formation of 2 for 200pts

My rationale for this is:

Using the abstraction for aircraft, make the dual ACs at 5+ to make it easier to balance and knock the entire 3+ intercept on the head.

The loss of 30cm AT ground attack and the extra AT shot from the third TB weapon could feasibly be used to counter the 5+ armour save increase.

Then the initiative bump to 1+ from 2+ for TBs can essentially be the cost of the +25points to the squadron in comparison to the Thunderbolts.

Is this a reasonable compromise?

Run a poll with a 4+ @225pts or 5+ @200pts choice, IMO.

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Guys, I would not support a poll on the costs without agreeing on the stats, these must be sorted out first.

While I can sympathise with the desire to introduce AA4+ on Fighters or Fighter bombers, this represents 'arms creep' that is totally unnecessary and must be resisted, even though it is 'only' 0.15 per weapon or 0.3 per a/c.
Judging by conversations at BoTCH this weekend I believe there are many others of a similar opinion.

By all means adjust the type and other weaponry / shooting capability to make it different from a ThunderBolt and more representative of a 'Storm Talon' - but without AA4+. Once the stats are agreed, then decide on the relative costs and formation size etc

No it doesn't. At 225pts these would be amongst the worst aircraft squadrons in the game as regards what you get for your points.

Everything else at 200pts or more kills more, and dies after taking far more hits.

People are panicking over a number on a dice, utterly separate from the wider picture.


90% of whom will never use NetEA stats or lists.

(Other than in passing, as they take a NetEA list and turn it into an EUK release)

((I also think it's highly unlikely that EUK would ever even stat up a Stormtalon, being as it's an asset for Codex Astartes Space Marines))

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90% of whom will never use NetEA stats or lists.

(Other than in passing, as they take a NetEA list and turn it into an EUK release)

((I also think it's highly unlikely that EUK would ever even stat up a Stormtalon, being as it's an asset for Codex Astartes Space Marines))[/quote]
Debatable, and irrelevant unless the poll will be restricted to people who only play netEA lists (including barring people who just talk and don't play)

Not sure when EUK have just rebranded a netEA list.

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Perhaps so.
But I'm guessing it's been a long time since Gavin's used Fire Prisms without AA, but with AT2+ (NetEA stats), for example (Eldar being his main army).

(Gavin : I don't mean to "pick on you" by guessing that, I'm just trying to get some perspective into how much affect an AA4+ Stormtalon is going to have on the Botch gamers... close to nothing is my impression)


Simple - ask those people not to vote.
We're all adults here, noone's going to spoil the vote just to screw with a gaming group they never intend to be part of.

Have it be a public vote rather than an anonymous one, if you don't trust people.


"In passing", as in taking a NetEA list and applying some changes to make it an EUK list/fit with the EUK development approach. As in you look at the NetEA version and maybe play a game or two, then make a bunch of changes to make the list more acceptable to your wants and needs.

Sorry for not being clearer there, but in no regard did I intend to say that EUK have ever taken someone else's list and re-branded it as being an EUK production without making some changes first.

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One more thing:
The Storm Talon has only 2 Hull Points where the Thunderbolt has 3 Hull Points.

So i would be ok with armour 6+


Space Marine Storm Talon Gunship
Type Speed Armour CloseCombat Firefight
Aircraft Fighter 6+ n/a n/a
Weapon Range Firepower Notes
Twin Assault Cannon 15cm AP4+/AT4+/AA4+ Forward Arc
Twin Heavy Bolter 30cm AP4+/AA5+ Fixed Forward Arc

Formation of 2 for 200pts or 225pts.

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