Going to something that lacks a model in a core list isn't exactly a great option, either. No matter how clear you try to make it, people will be confused.

Call it a Space Marine Thunderbolt and make the stats coincidentally similar to the Storm Talon. Avoids confusing new players, works with existing models, and has some precedent in the background. Improvements can be justified by the enhanced physiques and training of Space Marines or Serfs.

Hell, the existing Thunderbolt weapons fit is closer to that of the Storm Talon than to that of the actual Thunderbolt. It's not much of a leap.

EDIT: Seriously: storm bolters become Assault Cannons, the Multilaser becomes some kind of rocket launcher (perhaps with an OR option for a better ground attack mode) and it loses the rockets.

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Since the Horus Heresy there are no more Space Marinepiloted vehicle which are generally piloted by humans.
And if i look on thegaming tablei want to see a Storm Talon and not Thunderbolts.

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I think we should leave the core lists alone. There's no reason that any reasonable Storm Talon proxy that might appear couldn't "counts as" a TBolt. Same with any hypothetical Storm Eagle proxy counting as a Marauder. That way you get to see a Storm Talon, but list balance is unaffected.

I have no problem inserting these craft into developmental or experimental lists with accurate loadouts if appropriate, but Approved lists should be at a point where they only get minimal tweaking and no major changes.

I particularly dislike the tendency to try to shoehorn every new toy that the Space Marines get in 40k into the core list. Fortunately few make it past the suggestion stage, but Space Marines seem to be the only army that suffer from this; the other Imperials and Xenos tend to leave the core lists alone and add the units into appropriate variant lists. It's only exacerbated by GW's tendency for new releases to be overgunned to the point of absurdity.

Just my 2 cents.

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You mean, none have made it past the suggestion stage.

The Stormtalon is the very first occasion where this actually might happen.

The very first time in the 8 years since the Codex Marines list was released.

This is not a common occurrence.

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These are my thoughts aswell.

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Ditto

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Assuming you mean that Marines don't use vehicles used by humans. This is generally true (though the Sororitas use Rhino variants and the Space Wolves have Russes), but overlooks that the reason for that is that the Space Marine stuff is, generally, better and higher-tech. They don't use human gear in large part because human gear is inferior (or, in some cases, because it exceeds their limited mandate).



Except you're not going to. You're going to be asking people to either convert finicky little models with unusual shapes or be expecting them to buy them as forumware (or, I suppose, convert them from OOP Squat Gyrocopters). That's an unreasonable position to take for an important unit in a primary list.

Simply modifying the Thunderbolt's stats slightly in the Marine list, justifying it as a variant occasionally used by some chapters (piloted by either serfs or Marines), and allowing that to proxy for the Storm Talon would give the Marines a dedicated fighter distinct from the Navy, work the Storm Talon into the game, and prevent (some) confusion on the part of new players.

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It should certainly be presented in a newbie friendly way that makes it Extremely clear that many/most do not scratchbuild their own Stormtalons and instead use Thunderbolt models.

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I have to say the whole thing feels a bit icky, from several angles:

1. Adding a unit to the most core of core lists, for which there is and likely will never be a model. This totally changes the status of the list (and game) for new players. The prominence of the list could also be dangerous if forumware appears (the availability of which is only relevant for a minority of players BTW).

2. The stats. 3+ and 4+ to hit on CAP? Better ability to hit fast-moving targets than a Night Wing? It just doesn't sit right: it looks like an awful interceptor. I don't care what 40K says, it needs to fit in with everything else. Why do we need to religiously translate the stats from 40K? It's overthinking it, and it's not like every other unit has matching stats. For a start it must be as slow as hell, a diminished air-to-air capability is therefore easily justifiable. Even if it had fifty lascannons stuck on the front I wouldn't want to give it a good AA value (OK I exaggerate).

3. Options. Having both a skimmer and an aircraft would be horrible. Representing all the possible variants is unnecessary too - this is Epic. How long until GW/FW introduces a new loadout? Pick the role the unit is supposed to fill, and match the stats accordingly. It doesn't have to be identical to the 40K version. And TBH, the Thunderbolt already fills that role.

Personally I would leave it out, but if it absolutely has to be included I think the easiest thing would just be to give it the same stats as a Thunderbolt and have one "counts as" the other. It's a perfectly feasible statline for Epic, if you have a big problem with it then the rest of the Epic units are going to make your head explode.

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How would people feel if there were an official model available from FW?

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personally I wouldn't want to use it as I dislike the model, however putting that aside, assuming the model was decent, I'd use it as a proxy thunderbolt....

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I'm still against using it to replace the thunderbolt for a few reasons.

1) This is not an imperial guard unit shoehorned into the native list. It's imperial navy, a separate organisation used by both marines and guard, just like the Titan legions. No one is trying to suggest the imperial guard Vendetta should be turned into a flyer and swapped for the thunderbolt, just so the guard can use just guard units. Similarly no one is worried that the marines do not have their own astartes crewed war machines and are quite happy to take titans, even though the other human armies use these too.

2) Change for changes sake seems dangerous for a core list. Those who have been involved in the community version of the game for years will, quite rightly, see no problem chopping up lists. However new players, like me, still see themselves playing a games workshop game and start off with the rules on GWs website. Make a big change to the most iconic main list, especially one that is not merely an addition but actually a swap and it will both confuse and add further schism between the various versions of the game. I love the idea of NET:EA because it is games workshops game, with some minor adjustments to points and some alternative lists that I can use to expand, but not heavily deviate from, GWs game. New players will want to be able to buy, not proxy, all the units in their army from games workshop if they so desire. The place for such amendments is in the totally new lists IMHO. People could still use them in their codex armies for friendly games if they really want to.

If it is decided that converted/ forumwared talons and thunderbolts are both equally viable models for the marine aircraft choice it should be clear that people are proxying the rare fan made talon for the official thunderbolt, not the other way around.

3) If the talon is given stats (and here I suggest in offshoot lists, not the codex list), I still can't see it as a proper jet interceptor, that space worthy land speeder FW makes is a more convincing interceptor to me. Rather it looks like close support unit, more akin to a vulture, a transportless storm raven a squat iron eagle or a modern day apache gunship, than a thunderbolt or nightwing. As such I think it should be a skimmer. Despite a line or two in the fluff that mentions interception, in 40k it has, (at the moment at least,) rules akin to the Valkyrie's skimmer rules, not the imperial armour flier rules that the thunderbolt has to use.

4) If the worst happens and the talon replaces the thunderbolt it should never end up a better interceptor than a nightwing!

I say again - what if the official GW company Forgeworld starts making a model?


It's been a while since I tried giving FW any models, and I hear they've an airspace project coming up. Who knows, it's worth a shot. Ordered me a 40k model to look at.

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ANother idea:
Don`t replace the Thunderbolt. Just add the Storm Talon to the list so the player can decide if he wants to use Thunderbolts or Storm Talons.

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but why? they perform much the same role after all, I really don't see why it's such a hardship to use a proxy model with the thunderbolt stats...... you can even re-write the army list so it's not 'imperial navy' it's 'marine aerospace' or somesuch if it helps rationalise it....

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