because there is a bit more going on here than simply me deciding to change stats. It's a unit that crosses over the siegemasters, skitarii, and squat lists and part of the discussions about this led us to use the Skitarii list to test alternate stats for the unit. It may very well be that the stats end up unchanged from the originals, but part of testing them out is trying alternate stats.

EC here sees it far too black and white and assumes that this is final or some form of conspiracy. Have no fear, progress is being made, but we do need to get a test list out based on the discussions to try it out. I'm waiting to hear back from Dave and the other AC's on the Rapier before I push out the PDF though.

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-Vaaish

I hate inconsistency on stats between lists.

If this change is being tested across all the above lists, and the resultant change will be incorporated in ALL of these lists, then fair enough.

Otherwise I don't see the point in changing the official stats. But i'll wait until the playtesting across all these lists has been coompleted.

Cheers

James

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Well, at least I'm not saying you're incompetent. :-p

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This was my understanding of it, although it's more likely to just be in the skitarii list for testing and then move to the others if a better statline is worked out.

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-Vaaish

FWIW it will be tested in the Thurgrimm list. Today.

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I think part of the disagreement I have with Vaaish's interpretation of the Rapier is that I don't believe it should be a Firefight support weapon at all. To me, the Rapier Laser Destroyer is a science-fiction version of light antitank weapons such as the 37mm M3. It's designed as an antitank weapon, but can be fired at infantry as well. What it is not, however, is useful in a close-in assault involving small arms fire and grenades.

The M3 is effective out to a thousand yards, and is most effective when used as an ambush weapon against enemy armor. It is not designed to be part of an offensive rush, as it cannot be fired effectively while remaining mobile. FF4+ is the same value as a squad of Tactical marines, or highly trained and equipped Stormtroopers. While the Rapier should be significantly better than those troops at destroying armor from a fixed position (AT4+) it should not be their equal in a close, no-holds barred engagement with enemy forces. That's not what it should be used for at all, and making it into one more Firefight-based unit eliminates the flavor of an infantry-mobile antitank weapon.

EDIT: Likewise, that's also why I feel it would make more sense either as a standalone formation. It's not a weapon that should ever be committed to an engagement, but used at distance to prepare a target for attack by another formation.

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I agree, AoC. I feel the original stats (10cm move, -/-/5+, 45cm AP6+/AT4+) were totally fine, and represented the unit fairly well. There's no reason to drag down this list with testing alternate stats for other armies simply because the Skitarii themselves require our full attention at the moment. Once an actual army list is created, maybe then it might be time to think about adjusting stats (although I personally don't feel it's necessary).

There's enough going on in this list already, that there's no reason to add more variables to the experiment.

This is a quote from the latest fluff on the rapier in the FW experimental rules. This is why I proposed keeping the 30cm and upping the FF value to 4+. This is also why I think it should be part of a formation like the Sagitarii. It seems that fluff for the unit being more of what you've described, signal, has gone by the wayside.


You are correct, rapiers aren't a core unit. However, given the choice between generic Lascannon gun servitors and the rapier which most performs the same role, I decided to bring them back into the list and in the process started heavily researching the unit. Since the unit crosses over several lists there were some test stats for it floated around previously, but my own research indicated that they should have some form of armor value and that better FF was warranted over better AP because of the fluff behind them. Coinciding with that, based on how they were listed in other systems, I brought up the 15cm speed and LV status. Those, however, have been canned since it's pretty clear how epic deals with similar units.

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To be fair, it sounds like this isn't just Vaaish deciding independently to change rapiers, but more of a concerted effort across multiple lists.

An incomplete list with many other untried units however is the worst place to try something like that. If changes need to be tested (and I really don't think they do) then test them as the only change in an otherwise stable list, so any results can be looked at in isolation.

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+1 to above.

Now is not the time to be messing with a unit that already has official stats, stats which seem fine to me and others. Would be better off concentrating playtesting on the myriad of other issues that have previously become apparent.

We should park the Raper an come back to it later.

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You'd be right. It looks like everyone wants to keep the official Rapier stats, at least for the immediate future, except for Vaaish & maybe Moscovian?

Vaaish, do you intend that your new Rapier stats would replace those in the Siegemasters and the Mossinian army lists?



That unit is in the Slaanesh list.

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The rapier came up as part of discussions about crossover units and rules in lists as an attempt to standardize units rather than have different stats in different lists. The Rapier had substantially different stats in the Thurgrimm list because of this quote from what I think is the Squat Fluff on the rapier: "Because the laser blast is diffused through four barrels the weapon is shortened and the blast spreads slightly. As a result the Rapier is shorter ranged than a normal lascannon but more likely to hit dispersed targets such as infantry." Since the Rapier was rarely taken in AMTL lists anyway and the list was still experimental, I didn't see a problem with trying out the stats.



The plan was that the Rapier stats we worked out would be tried and if they worked well, it would roll out to the other lists using them. So, yes, they would eventually replace the existing Rapier stats.

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-Vaaish