Best suggestion I have seen so far for these.

I would rather we use Rapiers than generic lascannon servitors.

Cheers

James

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One more thing before I finish with the next draft.

Rapiers. I've spend most of the evening reading through Rogue Trader, the new FW rules, and the Warhammer 40k Compendium to figure out more about them. I know Moscovian and I talked through some stats a while back but I'm wondering is this might be more appropriate for the carrier:

Rapier: LV 15cm 6+ -- 5+

For speed I'm basing it on the carrier being artillery in the current FW rules which means it moves 6" and can't run. This is similar to the W4k compendium where it has a max speed of 24 but accelerates at 6" per turn.

Armor and type I'm basing on the thing being a vehicle with AV10 in the current FW rules and from what I understand it has a 6 for save under the compendium.

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-Vaaish

Move 6" and no running means it's slower than almost every other infantry infantry type in 40k = 10cm speed.

If heavy mortars, thunderfires, thudd guns, mole mortars, eldar support weapon platforms, eldar heavy weapon platforms, etc. are all infantry, then this should be infantry.

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I dunno, I don't think running should ever be figured into Epic movement. It's not something that really would have an effect on such a small scale. Infantry may run the last hundred yards, but that's not really part of the Epic environment. There's no reason not to have them speed 15cm like everything else. It's no different from 40k Heavy Weapons not being able to fire after moving, but still being able to in a game of Epic.

Definitely agreeing on Infantry, though. From a purely game perspective, if it's a Light Vehicle upgrade it will never be taken. The only purpose it would serve would be to make the unit vulnerable to Antitank fire, in exchange for a moderate increase in AT firepower. Not a worthy tradeoff, especially since the reason you initially took them out was because people never took them. The same could be said for the 10cm move, actually. Upgrades are so frequently not worthwhile anyway, you should avoid making them actively detrimental to the formation unless it's needed for balance purposes, or creates interesting gameplay dynamics.

Rapier is shared with Baran Siegemasters, isn't it...you should probably check with the IG champion before changing it, and keep the stats identical.

All infantry in 40k move 6" and may run a further d6".
Rapiers may not run and are therefore slower than other inf.

Oh look, the Rapiers in the Baran Siegemasters list move 10cm! And are infantry!

The current official stats are fine.

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If I may point out, running didn't come to 40k until 5th edition which is well after the swordwind list came about. That's why I went back and referenced all of the stats for them starting at Rogue Trader and the Compendium. I understand the apprehension at LV, so we can leave them at Infantry despite the current rules giving them approximately the same armor value as a Land Speeder which IS a light vehicle, but we are kind of cherry picking the rules we follow.


I think there is enough evidence to give them both 15cm moves and LV status, but I would be willing to leave them as infantry and give them the 6+ or 5+ armor save to represent their being a bit tougher.

Ulrik, don't worry we've been in talks and I'll be running this past them before a change gets made.

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-Vaaish

It's actually noted specifially in the rulebook that artillery is mounted on stands, ie are infantry: "Stands representing artillery must have between one and two artillery pieces and up to six crew models." The example shown is an Ork Big Gun - which is most definetly an infantry unit.

It is infantry and should be infantry.

What, exactly, is wrong with the official stats for Rapiers that justifies not using them?

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Mosc and I were discussing them since they cross over and it was decided to use the Skitarii list to test out alternate stats. The other issue is that the current stats just aren't attractive and upon researching what the rapier stats are in the other systems the official stats really don't fit.

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-Vaaish

The current stats are great. They're lovely units. Their only drawback right now is that you're insisting on attaching them to units that don't share the same focused AT role, diluting their attractiveness.

Lv units on the other hand would be a lot worse - I don't understand why you think making the unit more vulnerable, not to mention capable of dying to terrain tests, is going to make them more attractive. Not to mention every other unit in this class is Inf (I forgot about Ork Big Gunz before but they're another good example).

On speed, if they're slow in the official Epic Stats (10cm), and slow in 40k (6" only), then making them faster in this list is going to stick out as being wrong.

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If they are so great, why where they so rarely taken? There's obviously a problem if people don't want to take a 150 point formation that nets them 6x AT4+ shots at 45cm over. Changing to LV and giving them an armor value is closer to the stats from FW and the Warhammer 40k Compendium, nothing more. They certainly aren't the unarmored very slow moving gun the current stats make them out to be. Heck, Rogue Trader lets them move nearly as fast as a Land Speeder once they get up to speed.

If you don't believe me, you back and look them up yourself and decide if what we have really fits what the unit is. Either way, something probably needs to change on them to make the unit more attractive.



I'd like to point out that this is completely untrue. Slow units in 40k have the Slow and Purposeful rule which makes them always move as if they are going through difficult terrain. 6" is the standard movement speed in 40k. Running or lack there of should have no bearing on epic since running in 40k prevents you from both shooting and assaulting if you run under normal circumstances. Beyond that it's a variable distance which may net you 1" extra or 6" extra movement. It's simply not a mechanic that should ever factor into Epic movement speed.

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-Vaaish

Why are they do rarely taken?
Because:
A- people come to this list for the ordinati
B- the models are rare

That doesn't make them a bad choice - which is generally what your changes are pushing them toward.

You want to make them better?
Make them cheaper. Maybe give an amazing 6+ armour to represent carapace armour on the crew.
Don't make them LV - it's a massive downgrade which is nowhere near compensated for by giving them 6+ armour! Gaining the ability to die one sixth of the time when moving through cover is not an upgrade. Gaining the ability to be killed by AT firepower is not an upgrade.

And don't drop their range to 30cm so they become useless at their main job (garrison duty).

And Rogue Trader had lots of wacky stuff. I wouldn't start drawing too many stat comparisons from it other than vague guidelines.

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I really doubt that a 150 point formation was ever competing with the Ordinatii. If anything they competed with the Sentinels. Rarity of models is a reason, but it's simply not going to stop people if they think a unit is worth taking. They will find a proxy or create their own.

We can leave them as infantry and give them a 6+ armor save. I understand the reason you want them at 45cm, but just out of curiosity, since every 36" range weapon in 40k I can think of ends up being 30cm in epic, why would you ignore that in the case of the Laser Destroyer?

With 15cm movement speed, would 45cm range even be needed?

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-Vaaish

Infantry it is then.

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-Vaaish