I reckon we leave it as is.
It's not an overpowered option and really is only there for self defence as E&C mentioned.

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Widespread but short-ranged AA would certainly be a different approach from the usual AA umbrella, in a characterful way. Give lots of infantry stands a 15cm AA option so that you're compelled to surround your army with them. That would slow down the army, too, and promote using it as a single mass.

Actually, it would probably make more sense on servitors, and if they aren't huge in number then they could have more than 15cm range. But that would make it easier to simplify servitors - just add AA to their stats, permanently rather than as an option. I would really prefer them to not have different options, because as their opponent I'd never be able to tell them apart. Robots are fine too. Being controlled by a computer instead of a brain makes sense when you're shooting at fast-moving objects.

I'm curious why so all or nothing, EC?

I'm also going to work up another test list taking into account the discussions.

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-Vaaish

Because your proposed stat change appears to have no balance purpose.

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That wasn't what I asked, but the purpose was to end the discussion about the AA on the ordinatus. It's not changing the status quo, just altering things enough that it's more palatable to those who don't like the HB with AA. I's nearly identical outside of the 6+ AT shot and should do little to the existing balance. At this stage, if every change that was made was simply for the purposes of balancing we wouldn't be able to add robots or Sagitarii, or do anything to build the list. Since you already see the ordinatus as not balanced it shouldn't matter if they get a change like this prior to testing. I get the impression you don't want to see anything adjusted on the minorus in particular outside of reducing weapon options.

In my estimation there are three phases of list construction. The first is brainstorming what you want to do and planning the units and formations. The second is creating stats for those units and giving them initial point values. The third is adjusting point values to balance the list. Right now we've pulled back to the first stage, mainly to define the theme more clearly and work through what should be in the list initially. I think we are on the tail end of that and we are starting the second phase. It would ludicrous to assume that what the test list has will be fully balanced at the onset, but once we have the units acting how we want them we can work to refine point cost and balance the list fully. If we were at that stage I could understand your point of view that the change doesn't aid balance. So, again, why so all or nothing? Why are the stats sacred?

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-Vaaish

Yes I did answer your question.

The AA starts are/were fine. 10cm speed was fine. IMO All that was off was the points cost - too expensive for everything except quake arty (which is still the case now anyway).

Now, with the 50% increase up to 15cm speed the AA stats would probably still balanced ok for self defence if there were little other AA in the army, but if any change is warranted, I'd say it should be total deletion of the AA shots, to better fit with their new role of MBT that keeps up with the rest of the army as they'll now be under the main army's hydra AA umbrella. 30cm AA shots layered with hydra AA shots will probably change them from "tough for aircraft to attack" to "extremely tough for aircraft to attack".

And indeed you just admitted that you have no balance aim in changing it, but just want to change the "mars heavy bolter" into a "mars multi-laser" or something to avoid arguments. Well, that's why I said either keep it unchanged or kill the AA shot - to introduce balance concerns into a debate about naming conventions.

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wandering over, can i make a small case for 'expendable' servitors?

Specifically a small formation of 'expendable' servitors wth a 'non-expendale' tech priest unit controlling them.

Shoot the priest, 'expendable' ceases to work and the formation rapidly crumbles into disorganization. This is meant to emulate the servitor 'mindlock' rule in 40k at the moment.

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Thanks for the further explanation EC. It's more helpful to read what you wrote there than it is to see a one liner.

I guess my second question is why did you originally give the Ordinatus the HB? Was there a fluff reason?

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-Vaaish

My guess is because they were slow back-line units, and the mobile AA would be needed supporting the front line.

Thanks sigil, but I was asking about why the HB in the first place. The Ordinatus didn't always have an AA shot on the HB and I wanted to know why they were originally given the HB in the load out.

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-Vaaish

Ok, Folks. Here's were we are. The Ordinatus AA will be staying as is for the time being. We'll revisit it if necessary in a future update. The Colossus will be getting AA. Adding AA to the Praetorians would make them too all around and good as a stand alone unit, especially one in the core slot and in support, the AA makes the colossus a competitive option. I've been a bit busy the last weekend, but here's the updated plan for the initial list structure. At this point no allies are in there since we want to get the core done. They'll get in eventually.

Core:
Demi-century
Sagitarii

Ordinatus (1:2):
Minorus - AA
Majoris - AA

Support (1:1):
Praetorians
Crusaders
Colossus - AA (45cm AA6+ for the autocannons?)
Orbital Support

Upgrades (core only):
Flak - AA
Transport
Magos (tech lord)
Minorus

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-Vaaish

It was because they were moving slower than the rest of the army and seemed to work well with their own AA. You were around at the time.


It would be 30cm because it's not a Hydra Autocannon.

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Hmmm... I didn't remember that you added the HB, I thought they already had that and you added the AA shot. I was asking if there was a reason the HB was selected for the ordinatus over another weapon.


I thought as much but I wasn't entire sure. 30cm it is.

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-Vaaish

Ordinati majori historically had heavy bolters during the list's development, so when introduced the minori got them too.

The AA shot going on the heavy bolters rather than the majori's lascannons was because the shorter range meant it would be for self defence rather than area coverage.

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