In the time that I've been AC, things haven't quite been as smooth as I would have liked or anticipated. I apologize for that. I'm also pretty new to the mechanics of list construction so there are changes that don't work and areas that probably don't make a lot of sense. It's a pretty steep learning curve and I'm trying to do the best that I can and apologize for the missteps and bad decisions I've made. The word "theme" has been thrown around a good bit in all of this, and regardless of if I agree with EC or not, I think it's only fair to come up with a guide for us as we are testing the skitarii list so we can see where we are going and maybe even how to get there. If not then at least we will all be on the same page.

So to that end I've spent the better part of the last week painting.. er working up a guide for us.


Skitarii Legions Army List goal
The goal of the list development is to represent the capabilities, structure, and units of the Adeptus Mechanicus Skitarii Legions in a way that is accurate to the fluff and available stats of known units. It should focus around those units which are predominately featured by the Skitarii or exclusive to the Mechanicus as a whole so as to differentiate the list in play style and unit types from other lists available to epic players.


Skitarii Legions Army List theme
The theme of the Skitarii list will be in keeping with the ordered and mechanical nature of the Adeptus Mechanicus highlighting the fearsome skitarii legions of Gryphonne IV. It should represent the Skitarii near the time of the nid invasion. To do this, the list should focus on methodical, almost mechanical, movement by weighting the list with slow moving formations capable of garrison duty and armed with the best technology available to the Imperium. This translates into better than average infantry formations with multiple ordinatii supported by Sagitarii and Robots.


Official Skitarii or Adeptus Mechanicus units
Archmagos
Magos
Logis
Genetor
Artisan
Electro-Priest
Enginseer
Rune Priest
Transmechanic
Lexmechanic
Secutor
myrmidon assault engines
Praetorian Servitor
Gun Servitor
Hypaspist
Sagitarii
Balisteria
Mole Mortar
Rapier
Cataphractii
Crusader Robot
Colossus Robot
Castellan Robot
Cataphract Robot
Ordinatus Majoris
Ordinatus Minorus
Gorgon Transport
Chimedon
Warhound Titan
Reaver Titan
Warlord Titan
Emperor Titan

I know it's quite a lot of items there, but I'm not planning on the core Skitarii list having complete access. This was simply a listing of all named unit types I've been able to hunt down for the AdMech. I'm sure this isn't a complete listing and if there are some I've missed, let me know and I'll get them added in.

Ok, now here's where things get tricky. From that list I've pared down to these as being the core thematic units we will be implementing into the skitarii list:

Magos
Secutor
Hypaspists
Sagitarii
Praetorian Servitor
Gun Servitor
Crusader Robot
Colossus Robot
Ordinatus Majoris
Ordinatus Minorus

These are the units we should see in every list that make it look and play differently than guard or other Epic lists. How we do that will be a bit more tricky. To start, lets go through the units I've got here and explain why some units are gone.

Magos:
This essentially replaces the tech-lord. I can't find any reference to anything specific in the fluff I've seen that is a Tech-Lord, however we've got quite a few ranks of the ruling priesthood. Since we have Archmagos commanding explorator fleets it seemed that this would be a good thing to rename the Tech-Lord to.

Secutor:
Originally I had planned for the secutors to be upgrade units or separate formations. However, on further research, the Tech-priest label currently in command of Hypaspists etc, is pretty generic and encompasses anything from the lowliest Lexmechanic to the Magos Mechanicus. Since almost all of the lower priesthood ranks outside of the Electro-Priest seem more like support units rather than leaders, and Secutors are tech-priests specifically dedicated to warfare sent out with Imperial and AdMech forces by forgeworlds, I would like to see tech-priests leaders become secutors.

Sagitarii:
I am thinking about some serious revisions to these guys. I'm thinking of moving them to core. Their firepower would be reduced considerably and they will get a steep drop in points. this will allow for them to take Gun Servitors which will allow the formation to specialize.

Most of the remainder we've already got so I won't spend time discussing them in detail, but I do want to touch on the Praetorians and Gun Servitors.

Praetorians:
I think these will go back to a separate formation after reading through Andy Chamber's Deus Ex Mechanicus. The question is whether or not to make them core or support. I'm leaning toward making them support.

Gun Servitors:
Servitors pop up consistently in AdMech fluff but we've really only got a single catch all for them under praetorians. I think that these can be used to diversify the army and add flavor. My initial thought was to add them similar to the infantry support upgrade, but I don't think that will work as I want them to. Instead, I'm thinking these should attach to sagitarii. They would be in three forms. AT, AP, and AA with the sagitarii themselves being generalist AP/AT and small enough for transport. They would be a mandatory element and should be priced so that the formation is of similar size or a bit smaller to the regular Hypaspist Demi-Century but more expensive.

Ok, how does all this affect the list? Well here's a tentative change list and structure for where this is headed:

Hypaspists: Gain Secutor as leader, lose Tech-priest.
Sagitarii: lose Mortars, 2nd shot, tech-priest, rapiers, and minorus. gain gun servitors, move to core.
Minorus: no change
Majoris: add additional majoris types
Praetorians: become support formation (elite infantry)
Crusaders: no change, further testing (light, scout and screen unit similar to sentinels)
Colossus: no change, further testing (AV "tank" unit similar to predators)
Tech-Lord: name changed to Magos

Forge Knights: where are these even at in fluff? I've been trying to find them without much luck.
Orbital Support: move to allies? ignore?
Allies: revamp to remove bombers and thunderbolts. Titan implementation might change a bit since many legions have their own Skitarii. Further thoght needed.

List structure:
Core:
Skitarii Demi-century (9x hypaspists, 1x secutor)
Sagitarii Maniple (5x Sagitarii + 5x Gun Servitors: AA OR AP OR AP)
Ordinatus Minorus Company (3x minorus)

Support:
Praetorians (5x Praetorians)
Crusader Maniple (4x Crusader Robots)
Colossus Maniple (4x Colossus Robots)
Ordinatus Majoris
Orbital Support

Core Upgrades:
Flak
Transport
0-1 Magos
Minorus

Allies:
Titans
Cataphractii?


With that it leaves us are what to do with the Rapiers and Mole mortars, macharius, and titans. I'd also like to see the ability to upgrade the blitz or another objective into a defense laser. I've not fleshed out everything else at this point, but I would like to see discussions on the proposed direction.

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-Vaaish

you forgot myrmidon assault engines in the list of units.

this is some seriously heavy rewriting of the list though.

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I've added it to the list.

I think it actually seems like more of a rewrite than it is. Some of this is name swaps and returning older detachments while other are changes to unfinished detachments like the sagitarii. I think that the end will be a heavier focus on the skitarii infantry and other elements that are iconic to the AdMech.

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-Vaaish

I don't think giving gun servitors 3 separate weapons choices is a good idea. They are in effect just another heavy weapons infantry, and every other list gets a single generic option for their heavy weapon stands. Trying to represent the three different weapon types on a stand would be problematic as well.

If you want multiple weapons, you could go for something like the Tau Crisis Suit unit; say give them a multimelta (15cm, 5+ MW) and heavy bolter (30cm AP5+) attack each.

Glad to hear about the Sagitarii though. I'm sure they could be abusive as they were statted and costed before.

The choice wouldn't be a per stand basis. It would be for the entire 5 servitor set. In effect the detachment would have three separate specializations:

5x sagitarii and 5x AA servitors
5x sagitarii and 5x AP serivtors
5x sagitarii and 5x AT servitors

At least with the AP and AT you would have some overlap with the sagitarii themselves so the formation could lean toward AP or AT while the AA formation would probably be more restricted.

I've also been thinking that perhaps the sagitarii would still be best as support and maybe praetorians as core instead. My fear is that the sagitarii would become the de facto choice over the demi-century unless we figure the pricing to be well over the cost of the demicentury (350-400 points)

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-Vaaish

You're still giving a heavy weapons unit 3 separate weapon choices which will make differentiating them on the table hard and runs counter to how all other heavy weapons units in all other lists are statted.

I'm also not a fan if infantry AA; Obliterators can kinda get away with it, what with them being able to manifest any weapon thanks to Supah Warp Powahs, but the Servitors are only shown with normal heavy weapons, and none of them to my knowledge being anti air.

I like the idea of Gun Servitor units, i just don;t think they should have 3 stat lines and certainly no AA.

"Forge Knight" is a Knight type we came up with year's ago that allowed us to have a Knight in the list without all the special rules that would be required if it were a Paladin.

If you have become concerned about Theme, you need to work out what your Theme requires and then write the list to match it. That informs what should be core, what roles units should perform etc.

Your design approach thus far has been unit-led (you stat up lots of units and fit them into a list), rather than Theme-led.

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In the Horus Heresy art books the Kaban Project story does have servitors targeting and firing on an airborne target about the size of a human so they are capable of tracking and firing on air targets. Beyond that, we've already made the jump that normal heavy weapons like the Heavy Bolter are capable of targeting air units with the Minorus and Majoris. We've also got reference that heavy bolters are capable of AA with the thunderhawk. I think there's enough there that we can say a servitor can be outfitted for targeting air units.



I really like the concept of a unit that selects a direction to augment and having the mix of servitors with infantry is very fitting especially for AdMech. In the end it's basically an efficiency aid for list construction since the exact same effect can be had by making separate formations one with 5x AT gun servitors and one with 5x AP gun servitors attached to the Sagitarii. There's also precedent for the concept in the Biel Tan aspect selection.

I guess it could be boiled down into gun servitors armed with plasma cannons attached to sagitarii armed with the same, but at that point why even bother with gun servitors? We want to have them bring something to the table and giving you two types to pick from to determine the function of the formation helps make the servitors a bit more unique by letting us arm the sagitarii with plasma cannons and have the options for gun servitors armed with HB for AP and Lascannons for AT versions. Both weapons are 5+ with lets them work seamlessly with the sagitarii's plasma but augments the formation in such a way that it functions differently.

Other than running counter to other lists in construction, how is the situation really any different on the table? Is it any more difficult than separating multiple devastator formations visually or is it different than having formations containing differing unit types like IG upgraded with snipers or Ogryn?

EC: did you read the opening post? I have the statement of the goal and theme from which the core units to form the list around were selected. I don't believe this has to literally translate into the "core" section of the list, just the units which compose the list itself and therefore show up on the table in a typical army.

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-Vaaish

I did. A lot about what units you like, not much about how you want the list to play.

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Currently doing a plastic scenery kickstarter

A lot of infantry weapons should be able to shoot at aircraft but I don't think anyone would support Space marine Scouts having an AA attack. There's a difference between shooting down a dude with a jetpack and managing to tag a strategic bomber, or even a fighter bomber strafing you. Epic only models larger AA and assumes anything small enough to be infantry portable wouldn't have enough of an effect to bother modelling AA for.

A weapon's ability to shoot at air targets is as much or more to do with it's mounting system and targeting support than anything else. Hell, if Heavy Bolters were such an obvious AA choice, Heavy Bolter Razorbacks and Leman Russ should have an AA attack.

As a real world example, and as 40k is basically World War II IN SPACE, one of the most widely used guns in WW II was the German FLaK88. It was initially a (very good) anti air gun, and was mounted as such on a platform with unobstructed viewlines and at a high elevation. It was found to also be one of the few guns the Germans had that could penetrate the heavier Russian tanks though, and so ended up being the primary armament of the German Ferdinand and Jagpanther tank destroyers.

To suggest that those two tank destroyers should have an AA attack would be ludicrous however, even though they use basically the same gun as the standard German AA unit. This is because the same gun was mounted and deployed differently for a different purpose, just like Heavy Bolters in an AA mount are different from one carried by an infantry, or even one mounted in a sponsoon.

EC:
I like to be concise, you shouldn't need to go on for pages explaining how things operate:
"focus on methodical, almost mechanical, movement by weighting the list with slow moving formations capable of garrison duty and armed with the best technology available to the Imperium. This translates into better than average infantry formations with multiple ordinatii supported by Sagitarii, Robots, and Titans. "

That should tell you how the list plays and what kind of units you should expect to see in a typical list.

Mike:
My point was that even in a setting where servitors weren't specifically designed for AA, they were still capable of tracking and firing on a small, fast moving air target. We don't have to have an AA option, but I felt it would be allowed since a servitor would practically be a mounted weapon. They aren't like your regular infantry and the encompass just about everything from tracked weapons platforms through close to human ones you see with a tech marine. I really don't think the 88's are a valid example for what we are talking about here.

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-Vaaish

Vaaish: okay, so if that para is your entire list style plan, does it seem that you're likely to achieve the right feel with, by my count, 20 different infantry types? Is that where the core Theme of the ad mech is found in your opinion?

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EC: there aren't 20 infantry types going into the core list. The first list is just putting all of the possible types in one spot which was then pared down to these options as the core thematic units:

Magos
Secutor
Hypaspists
Sagitarii
Praetorian Servitor
Gun Servitor
Crusader Robot
Colossus Robot
Ordinatus Majoris
Ordinatus Minorus

That's six basic infantry types and 4 vehicle types. Of that, it reduces into 7 formation types providing a core of infantry and ordinatus supported by robots, servitors and ordinatus. That should be more than sufficient to fulfill the elements of the theme as stated in a typical list.

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-Vaaish

Gorgons?

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NetEA Chaos + Black Legion Champion

Thanks, I've added the gorgon in there.

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-Vaaish