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Land Raider Proteus

 Post subject: Land Raider Proteus
PostPosted: Thu Apr 19, 2012 4:31 pm 
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Time to talk about the elephant in the room- the LR Proteus. This is a love it or hate it vehicle. I will admit that I like the fact that it basically allows my old crusty MK1 plastic land raiders some new life. It also allows new(er) players to jump on board as there's NO lack of them running around on the interwebs (people seem to be more about Mk2b and current metal ones). I've tried drumming up some conversation on this over at SG forums but it's pretty dead over there (except for Neal - cheers) so I am bringing this in front of the synod for rules lawyering ;D

The FW stats on the LR Proteus are effectively the same as the LR though it has a limitation of 8 models (IIRC the LR has 10) and the Explorator Augury Web. I quote,
Quote:
Explorator Augury Web: The sophisticated scanners and
cognis-interpreters built into the structure of the Proteus are all but
un-replicable devices that likely far pre-date the Age of the Imperium.
On the battlefield these augurs can be used both to scan enemy
positions in extraordinary detail, allowing enemy movements to be
thwarted, or reinforcements to be called in with uncanny accuracy.
While the Proteus is on the table, at the start of any of the owning
player’s turn, before any reserve rolls are made they may declare than
the Proteus’s auguries are being used in Disruption or Relay modes, their
effect lasting until the their next player turn.
• Disruption Mode: The opposing force suffers a -1 to their reserve
rolls.
• Relay Mode: The owning player’s Reserve rolls may be re-rolled
(whether failed or successful!) if they wish.
In addition, enemy units using the Infiltrator rule to deploy may not be
placed within 24” of a Land Raider Proteus which itself has already been
deployed (This has no other effect on the deployment of enemy units).


Land Raider Proteus
Type: Armoured Vehicle
Speed: 30cm
Armour: 4+
Close Combat: 6+
Firefight: 4+

Weapons:
2x Twin Lascannons 45cm AT4+
Heavy Bolter 30cm AP4+

Notes:
Reinforced Armour, Thick Rear Armour, Transport* (may carry one of the following units: SM Tactical, Devestator & scout units), Scout
* Cannot carry SM terminators.

I'd suggest this is an upgrade for 1 detachment of Land Raiders to Land Raider Proteus at +10pt per model. In addition I'd strongly recommend this for friendly games ONLY and in general, try and restrict this to 1st founding lists unless agreed upon.

Current questions to post:
-Perhaps the armour should go to 5+ and instead wash the the points cost? Granted the proteus is currently 25pts cheaper than the LR in 40k but when we're talking about a 10% difference perhaps it is better to make it a straight wash points wise.
-How to better model the advanced augury capabilities in the game? Open to ideas here. Perhaps adding inspiring or even a new ability? Or maybe the following better models the augury systems effect on a 40k game: Automatically applies the crossfire bonus (regardless of actual cross fire locations) to all units within 20cm (again ZOC here). If the shooting formation already has the bonus, the proteus is further added. This perhaps better represents the ability of the formation to better identify and target the enemies.

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 Post subject: Re: Land Raider Proteus
PostPosted: Thu Apr 19, 2012 9:50 pm 
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For the extended augury capabilities, I'd recommend the Land Raider Prometheus' "can use the commander ability outside 15cm". Supreme Commander might also work OK, but seems a bit much.

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 Post subject: Re: Land Raider Proteus
PostPosted: Fri Apr 20, 2012 6:32 pm 
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Why should the Proteus be faster than the Phobos (= Standart) Land Raider?
The Heavy Bolter is an upgrade. Standart armament is only two Twin Lascannons.

And it is Scout in Wh40k so i suggest Scout in Epic, too. This would also represent the Explorator Augury Web.

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 Post subject: Re: Land Raider Proteus
PostPosted: Fri Apr 20, 2012 7:02 pm 
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BlackLegion wrote:
Why should the Proteus be faster than the Phobos (= Standart) Land Raider?

The fluff explicitly states it is faster/lighter.
Quote:
Mechanicus tech-savants believe that the Land Raider Proteus is a precursor to the Phobos pattern vehicle now found amongst the armouriums of the Adeptus Astartes. Bulkier and faster than the Phobos, ancient and forgotten data-looms describe the Proteus as a forward assault vehicle, commonly fielded in Explorator missions during the dawning days of Mankind’s fledgling galactic empire.


BlackLegion wrote:
The Heavy Bolter is an upgrade. Standart armament is only two Twin Lascannons.

Not a bad idea to remove the bolter.

BlackLegion wrote:
And it is Scout in Wh40k so i suggest Scout in Epic, too. This would also represent the Explorator Augury Web.

Agreed.

Land Raider Proteus
Type: Armoured Vehicle
Speed: 30cm
Armour: 4+
Close Combat: 6+
Firefight: 5+

Weapons:
2x Twin Lascannons 45cm AT4+

Notes:
Reinforced Armour, Thick Rear Armour, Transport* (may carry one of the following units: SM Tactical, Devestator & scout units), Scout
* Cannot carry SM terminators.

Removed heavy bolter and set FF to 5+-removed points increase.

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 Post subject: Re: Land Raider Proteus
PostPosted: Fri Apr 20, 2012 8:38 pm 
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Put the "Scout" in front of "Transport" or it will be overlooked. No need to specially exclude Terminators for being transportable as they aren't listed in the Transport parenteses anyway.

Like this:

Space Marine Land Raider Proteus
Type Speed Armour CloseCombat Firefight
Armoured Vehicle 30cm 4+ 6+ 5+
Weapon Range Firepower Notes
2 x Twin Lascannon 45cm AT4+ -

Notes: Reinforced Armour, Scout, Thick Rear Armour, Transport (may carry one unit of the following Space Marine Tactical, Devastator & Scout unit).

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 Post subject: Re: Land Raider Proteus
PostPosted: Fri Apr 20, 2012 8:41 pm 
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I'd argue the ability to transport eight should be rounded up to ten rather than down to five. Also, I really do think it need something more to represent the relay (Improved Comms would be the obvious one, IMO).

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 Post subject: Re: Land Raider Proteus
PostPosted: Fri Apr 20, 2012 8:54 pm 
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Hmm the Improved Comms of the Pometheus does something similar like the Explorator Augury Web on Relay Mode.
Improved Comms give +1 on the Reserve Roll, Explorator Augury Web in Relay Mode allows a re-roll of a Reserve Roll.

The rounding up of the transport limitation has merit. But Space Marines operate in Squads of 5 or 10 Marines. So either one Epicu nits fits in or none.

Space Marine Land Raider Proteus
Type Speed Armour CloseCombat Firefight
Armoured Vehicle 30cm 4+ 6+ 5+
Weapon Range Firepower Notes
2 x Twin Lascannon 45cm AT4+ -

Notes: Reinforced Armour, Scout, Thick Rear Armour, Transport (may carry one unit of the following Space Marine Tactical, Devastator & Scout unit). Any unit in the same formation as the Prometheus may ignore the 5cm restriction when using the Commander ability.

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 Post subject: Re: Land Raider Proteus
PostPosted: Fri Apr 20, 2012 9:09 pm 
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I'd stat it as:

Land Raider Proteus
Type: Armoured Vehicle Speed: 25cm
Armour: 4+ Close Combat: 6+ Firefight: 6+

Weapons:
2x Twin Lascannons 45cm AT4+

Notes:
Improved Comms, Reinforced Armour, Scout, Thick Rear Armour, Transport (may carry two of the following units: SM Tactical, Devestator & Scout units)

Improved Comms is the Prometheus' "remove 5cm commander limit".

I may sneak it into the Rogue Trader list. :)

Epic has fudged transport numbers before - among other things, how many units does a Crusader transport in Epic?

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 Post subject: Re: Land Raider Proteus
PostPosted: Fri Apr 20, 2012 9:38 pm 
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Still think it should have 30cm as it is stated to be faster but hey, I am not a muckety-muck here and am not an AC. I'd love this to get blessed any way I can :)

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 Post subject: Re: Land Raider Proteus
PostPosted: Fri Apr 20, 2012 9:48 pm 
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The Crusader carries 3 standard or 2 terminator, I believe that has an 8 terminators transport capacity in 40k.

I was just planning on using the armoured Proteus'(Proteii?) I'm building as a standard LRs, wouldn't that be simpler? There's tons of the old 'proteus' style LR models out there, probably more of them being used as standard LRs in games of epic than there are of the current model.


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 Post subject: Re: Land Raider Proteus
PostPosted: Fri Apr 20, 2012 10:35 pm 
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Add some wires to serve as antennae (perhaps a receiver dish). Boom. Proteus.

I looked for the reference to it being faster and couldn't find it...

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 Post subject: Re: Land Raider Proteus
PostPosted: Fri Apr 20, 2012 10:44 pm 
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Simulated Knave wrote:
Add some wires to serve as antennae (perhaps a receiver dish). Boom. Proteus.

I looked for the reference to it being faster and couldn't find it...


I quoted it above straight from the FW website
Quote:
Mechanicus tech-savants believe that the Land Raider Proteus is a precursor to the Phobos pattern vehicle now found amongst the armouriums of the Adeptus Astartes. Bulkier and faster than the Phobos, ancient and forgotten data-looms describe the Proteus as a forward assault vehicle, commonly fielded in Explorator missions during the dawning days of Mankind’s fledgling galactic empire.

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 Post subject: Re: Land Raider Proteus
PostPosted: Fri Apr 20, 2012 11:20 pm 
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Ah. I was looking in the rules document.

I'm never sure how much weight to give to website text, honestly.

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 Post subject: Re: Land Raider Proteus
PostPosted: Fri Apr 20, 2012 11:29 pm 
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Simulated Knave wrote:
Ah. I was looking in the rules document.

I'm never sure how much weight to give to website text, honestly.


True but you need to remember that the rules NEVER have movement speed anymore as that's been removed from 40k5E as everything moves the same rate now.

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 Post subject: Re: Land Raider Proteus
PostPosted: Fri Apr 20, 2012 11:33 pm 
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Oh, true. But the fluff text doesn't mention it either, and so I wonder if the mention there is intended to reflect 'reality' or just the webmaster's assessment of the rules.

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