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Re: AMTL/Skitarii DRAFT LIST Revision D

 Post subject: Re: AMTL/Skitarii DRAFT LIST Revision D
PostPosted: Tue Mar 27, 2012 3:59 am 
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Revision C was internal.

V2.02 TEST D
Skitarii changes:
Secutors given multi-meltas to better define their role
Praetorians AA shot removed and save reverted to 3+
Robot special rule added
Crusader reverted to LV
Colossus loses fearless
Crusader and Colossus gain “Robot” special rule
Sagitarii Mole Mortar option upgraded to 2x mortars.
Ordinatus Majoris limited to only ordinatus weapons list
Majoris Moved to support to prevent use of CLP minorus upgrade
Heavy Tank Cataphract moved to allies
Leman Russ Executioners removed


I believe this is all of the previously discussed changes and the addition of the Russ Executoners being dropped from the list. Feel free to flame away. I'd like to focus mostly on Robots and Secutors at this point. Sagitarii are secondary despite their boost.

My goal at this point is to get the robots finalized and the secutors checked. From there we can work on the sagitarii and their options.

I may see about putting back the CB on the Tech priest and lord as E&C suggested. I'm also thinking about dropping the knight formation by one unit as well. I think it help to net a drop in price for them, but I'm afraid that it will hurt their effectiveness too much.

Please discuss.

EDIT: I hate publisher. it's so hobbled and clunky compared to indesign.


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 Post subject: Re: Re: AMTL/Skitarii DRAFT LIST Revision D
PostPosted: Fri Mar 30, 2012 7:26 am 
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I guess I should try to read the list and adjusted stats as much as the ongoing thread...."Discussion"

1. Majoris Ordinatus - I do not like or understand why it isn't a Core choice and/or why I can now only take the "Fancy Named" weapons systems. It should be reinstated on both accounts.

2. Rapier Laser - Can we just make them upgrades for Core choices? Kinda odd where there at now.

3. Transports - What happened to the Chima-ish type things? All we have is a Chimadon? Also can we are we just sticking with Minor with Assault Pod or bring back a Large Troop hauler?

4. Skitarii, Sagitarii, Secutors etc - The Core/Backbone of a PDF or General List should be the Skitarii and there various glory. With that said I think we need more Infantry Core choices and/or upgrades of troops.

Base Formation- 1 Tech Priest, 9 Skitarii
Shooting Formation- 1 Tech Priest, 5? Sagitarii
Close Action Formation- 1 Tech Priest, 4? Secutors or Praetorians (Any Mix)

Upgrades:
Skitarii Support- 5 Skitarii OR 2 Sagitarii OR 2 Secutors OR 2 Praetorians
Flak- 1 Hydra
TechLord- 1 Tech Lorrd
Transport- X Chimra ish vehicles
Ordinatus- 1 Minor

Sagitarii- I would drop the Mole Motors off them and also I would like to test AP4+/AT6+ for the Plasma since that is stats we want to change all Plasma to anyways might as well test as that so we can bring that data to the Plasma talks.

5. Flak - As noted in one of the posts on here there "Mobile Hydra Platforms" could we make additional load out for the Minors be 2 Hydra Turrets? Then maybe drop the Hydra altogether?

6. Defenses - As much as I agreed a PDF list is what we needed or was working on I don't defenses are warrranted enough. Maybe a Laser thing but walls, trench and bunkers are not something I see every FW PDF having setup. I see the PDF list as a call to arms of the garrison and all the crazy toys like Ordinatus etc. I just don't feel they are or would iconic enough like for the Death Krops.

7. Macharius - If we have an Heavy Support list then I think Machrius can be dropped form Allies too, but for the time being leaving them as Allies doesn't hurt I guess.

I'm sure there is more I'm forgetting but just some thoughts....

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 Post subject: Re: AMTL/Skitarii DRAFT LIST Revision D
PostPosted: Fri Mar 30, 2012 7:34 am 
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I've lined up a test game monday; Batrep to follow. In the meantime, a few random thoughts while putting the list together:

- Aren't Secutors supposed to be at least Terminator-sized? If so, I think they should be barred from the Chimedons (like the Praetorians are).
- The Minorus Transport - As it is, it can't transport upgraded demi-centuries. Could it get a bit more transport capacity? Alternatively, allow taking "enough to transport the entire formation".
- May I suggest ditching the Corvus Pod as an upgrade, and just have a separate "Heavy Mechanicus Transport", or "Transport Minorus" unit, with Minorus stats? I think it will make pricing and list structure simpler.


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 Post subject: Re: Re: AMTL/Skitarii DRAFT LIST Revision D
PostPosted: Fri Mar 30, 2012 6:27 pm 
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AoC: Thanks for your comments, I'll try to address everything and explain the rationale behind it and then see where we stand after that. :)

1. The Majoris changes were implemented for two reasons. 1. to reduce unit count and allow for more fixed types of Majoris. What you see here is the first step, the next phase is to add in more named versions. 2. the switch to support was to prevent the Majoris access to a CLP Minorus upgrade when using the mars weapons system. This was to alleviate E&C's fears that the combination would be overpowered.

Fluff wise, the majoris is the more rare of the ordinatus with each one being named for the place of origin or the conflict it was built for. This means they shouldn't be as common in the lists as the minorus or the hypaspists and placement in the support section does this although it does still allow for a large number of them to be present if desired. Along those same lines, limiting the majoris to named weapons allows for them to be more thematic rather than simply generic weapons platforms.

2. We did try this to an extent in draft a. Mole Mortars and Rapeirs were implemented as options for the infantry upgrade option along with Praetorians and Secutors. The just didn't receive much attention and were never taken. This was also the issue we had with them as a separate support detachment. The current versions assigns them to the Sagitarii to allow them to boost their numbers.

3. Chimeras are gone for good. Fluff was found that shows the Chimedon was used only by Tech Guard which is why it was substituted. It's basically a chimera with a cannon on top and less room for infantry. I'm also avoiding things like the Gorgon since it takes away from the AdMech flavor. Since we want minorus as a primary focus, using them with a Assault Pod is the way to go for heavy transport.

4. This is a rather more complex issue. I'm not against adding more choices in the infantry upgrades however there are some problems with your suggestions.
Base Formation: check, this is what we have. no surprises there.
Shooting formation: This is effectively what the sagitarii are although to keep with the idea of the multiples of 5 in the list it's 4 sagitarii and one tech priest. We've currently got this as support and they are a pretty versatile formation that I think could easily get out of hand if placed in the Core group although the thought has crossed my mind. :)
CC formation: This almost happened as 4 secutors. Eventually I decided that it really didn't fit the fluff to do this, especially as a core formation.

Skitarii Support: I'm not opposed to adding back the extra skitarii stands however the sagitarii can never be part of this option.

OK. Infantry fluff this is why some of your suggestions can't be inplemented:
Secutors: they are described as rare units as such allowing access to a stand here or there fits their fluff more than a support formation that could be taken multiple times. Adding limits like 0-1 means they don't scale as points go up which I dislike. That's why they ended up as an upgrade to the skitarii where they would show up sprinkled here and there rather than a large number overall.

Sagitarii: These are specifically described as heavy weapons troops that are NOT part of hypaspist formations. Any heavy weapons in a hypaspist formation are simply called hypaspists; this is why we can't put them in the support upgrade. I have no problems changing the plasma stats. They were originally changed from the default slow firing to the current to match the minervan list. If the stats are changing, I'll change them to match. On mole mortars. I didn't want to remove the option but they just don't seem to be taken as separate formations or upgrades. Giving the Sagitarii the option to swap seemed like a good idea since it gave another heavy weapon to the group and gave them flexibility in their roles and hopefully allow the mortars to get some use.

5. I don't think this is necessary. Both the minorus and Majoris have AA capability with their HB so you don't gain much and doing this would get pricey with the minorus base price. Taking out the hydra negates some peoples collections entirely. As an upgrade option there is at least a place for it with the Flak support detachment removed.

6. I agree with you here. I'm thinking the Defense Laser would make a fun option for the Skitarii list to replace an objective on their side of the table with, but I've not sat down to work on it. I think doing this would allow for a more defensive oriented play style too.

7. Fluff wise I think they need to stay allies. They are listed as fighting with Skitarii although we don't know if they were operated by IG personnel or Skitarii. With the 33% allies you've got a max of 2x detachments in a 3k game which is down from the potential 6x or so detachments if left as support. It also competes with Thunderbolts and titans which pushes it further down the list.

Speaker: IIRC they are just noted as heavily armored and armed with ancient weapons. While it isn't necessarily a problem to disallow transport in chimedons, I kind of like the ability to do so since it gives a mobile formation a nice boost without Minorus transport. I'll note it for future thought though. Lets focus on nailing down robots and sagitarii before we get caught up on tweaking the secutors.

-Let me look it over. Changing it in Skitarii would change it in AMTL since the option is selected from the TL list. I need to see how that would affect things.

-The corvus pod is an actual weapon option not an upgrade so while I guess we could do a specific transport minorus, it causes complications with selecting components. Are you referring to any particular circumstance? It would help to know what the context is with this.

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 Post subject: Re: Re: AMTL/Skitarii DRAFT LIST Revision D
PostPosted: Fri Mar 30, 2012 11:57 pm 
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Vaaish wrote:
-Let me look it over. Changing it in Skitarii would change it in AMTL since the option is selected from the TL list. I need to see how that would affect things.

-The corvus pod is an actual weapon option not an upgrade so while I guess we could do a specific transport minorus, it causes complications with selecting components. Are you referring to any particular circumstance? It would help to know what the context is with this.


What I meant was:
- Don't let Minorii take the Corvus Assault Pod weapon option, and
- Add a new unit, with identical stats to the Minorus, except it has Move 25cm, Transport capability, and cannot select any weapon options. Call it "Heavy Transport" or something similar.

The result is that the Minorus don't need special rules for the Corvus Pod in the unit description text, and the Heavy Transport can be priced independently of the Minorus and the pod. It may be that you find that the transport is really only worth 150 points, or it may be worth 250 points. Either can now be accomodated without fidgeting with the price of the pod (which is probably balanced as "free" for a Titan). It is also possible to tweak the transport capacity of the Heavy Transport without affecting a Titan-mounted pod.


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 Post subject: Re: Re: AMTL/Skitarii DRAFT LIST Revision D
PostPosted: Sat Mar 31, 2012 1:32 am 
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Hmmm... if we do that I think it would be simpler to just add back the Gorgon than make up something new. Right now it's pretty simple with weapon selection to see what you can and can't use and I think that this would make it much more complicated. For now lets leave the minorus pricing alone. I want do do some comprehensive testing of each combination after we get robots, hypaspists, and Sagitarii nailed down.

Basically what we need to do is try out different minorus weapons options and decide if it's just right, OP, or underpowered for the points values in the War Griffons list and write it down. if possible we can tweak the base chassis price to bring things into alignment, but if that fails what we may end up doing is stripping out the weapon list from the war griffins and making it a shared Admech weapon list which each lists references. That would give us the possibility of tweaking points for the Skitarii list.

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 Post subject: Re: Re: AMTL/Skitarii DRAFT LIST Revision D
PostPosted: Sat Mar 31, 2012 3:01 am 
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Please remove my name from the document.

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 Post subject: Re: Re: AMTL/Skitarii DRAFT LIST Revision D
PostPosted: Sat Mar 31, 2012 5:51 am 
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You still contributed the unit text and the Titan Legions list, would like me to make a distinction or remove you from the document entirely?

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 Post subject: Re: Re: AMTL/Skitarii DRAFT LIST Revision D
PostPosted: Sat Mar 31, 2012 11:27 am 
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Fair point, have me down as a past contributor.

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 Post subject: Re: Re: AMTL/Skitarii DRAFT LIST Revision D
PostPosted: Sat Mar 31, 2012 1:24 pm 
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Vaaish wrote:
Hmmm... if we do that I think it would be simpler to just add back the Gorgon than make up something new. Right now it's pretty simple with weapon selection to see what you can and can't use and I think that this would make it much more complicated. For now lets leave the minorus pricing alone. I want do do some comprehensive testing of each combination after we get robots, hypaspists, and Sagitarii nailed down.

Basically what we need to do is try out different minorus weapons options and decide if it's just right, OP, or underpowered for the points values in the War Griffons list and write it down. if possible we can tweak the base chassis price to bring things into alignment, but if that fails what we may end up doing is stripping out the weapon list from the war griffins and making it a shared Admech weapon list which each lists references. That would give us the possibility of tweaking points for the Skitarii list.

Vaaish- can I ask why concentrating on balancing robots, hypaspists, and Sagitarii rather than Minorus? Given that Minorus pricing and options are one of the main sticking points, would it not be worth concentrating on that first and putting it to bed as an issue?

Thanks

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 Post subject: Re: Re: AMTL/Skitarii DRAFT LIST Revision D
PostPosted: Sat Mar 31, 2012 6:14 pm 
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The simple reason is that the minorus isn't too bad right now externally and nailing down the sagitarii, hypaspists, and robots is quicker to do since they have less complexity. It just means we can check of more of the list ready to go while we concentrate on the ordinatus.


EC, I'll get that put into the next update.

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 Post subject: Re: Re: AMTL/Skitarii DRAFT LIST Revision D
PostPosted: Sat Mar 31, 2012 6:21 pm 
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Ok- thanks for explanation.

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 Post subject: Re: Re: AMTL/Skitarii DRAFT LIST Revision D
PostPosted: Mon Apr 02, 2012 12:48 am 
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SpeakerToMachines wrote:
Vaaish wrote:
-Let me look it over. Changing it in Skitarii would change it in AMTL since the option is selected from the TL list. I need to see how that would affect things.

-The corvus pod is an actual weapon option not an upgrade so while I guess we could do a specific transport minorus, it causes complications with selecting components. Are you referring to any particular circumstance? It would help to know what the context is with this.


What I meant was:
- Don't let Minorii take the Corvus Assault Pod weapon option, and
- Add a new unit, with identical stats to the Minorus, except it has Move 25cm, Transport capability, and cannot select any weapon options. Call it "Heavy Transport" or something similar.

The result is that the Minorus don't need special rules for the Corvus Pod in the unit description text, and the Heavy Transport can be priced independently of the Minorus and the pod. It may be that you find that the transport is really only worth 150 points, or it may be worth 250 points. Either can now be accomodated without fidgeting with the price of the pod (which is probably balanced as "free" for a Titan). It is also possible to tweak the transport capacity of the Heavy Transport without affecting a Titan-mounted pod.


Vaaish wrote:
Hmmm... if we do that I think it would be simpler to just add back the Gorgon than make up something new. Right now it's pretty simple with weapon selection to see what you can and can't use and I think that this would make it much more complicated. For now lets leave the minorus pricing alone. I want do do some comprehensive testing of each combination after we get robots, hypaspists, and Sagitarii nailed down.


Hi

I was thinking about this overnight whilst preparing for WFB mini-tournie (of which the less said the better). I have realised that while copying the quotes it is along same lines as STM above.

What I was going to suggest is renaming it as say Mechanicus heavy transport (for the moment with same stats above) and in the unit description fluff text stating something along the lines of:
"The Adeptus Mechanicus uses a wide variety of heavily armoured transports including Gorgon, Crassus Armoured Assualt Transport and Ordinati Minorus with Corvus Assault Pods. Desite their differing appearances these all have the same function- to deliver their Skitarii troops unscathed into the heart of the enemy line"

Please edit wording above as you see fit. But it would then cover those who have acquisitions from blue furry / wet furry (forthcoming) or have scratchbuilt / converted their own. So it will keep more people happy whilst only having one stat line and can be justified by a variety of different background fluff.

Stats wise I can't remember if stats are currently different from Gorgon- if so I would presume that we should stick with Gorgon stats as already used in other lists and thus more balanced/playtested.

Thanks

James

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 Post subject: Re: Re: AMTL/Skitarii DRAFT LIST Revision D
PostPosted: Mon Apr 02, 2012 9:19 am 
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Stats for the Crassus would be something like this:

Crassus Armoured Assault Transport
Type Speed Armour CloseCombat Firefight
War Engine 30cm 4+ 6+ 4+
Weapon Range Firepower Notes
4 x Heavy Bolter 30cm AP5+ -

Damage Capacity 2. Critical Hit Effect: One of the Crassus's tracks is blown off. It can't move anymore for the remainder of the game.

Notes: Reinforced Armour. Transport (may carry 7 Infantry units.).

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 Post subject: Re: Re: AMTL/Skitarii DRAFT LIST Revision D
PostPosted: Mon Apr 02, 2012 10:05 am 
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Because this list needs less focus on ordinati?

How about statting and pointing individually so you can actually balance transport ordinati.

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