LikewiseI feel if the Skitarii was so key for E&C's supplement, I am surprised that he did nt stay on as AC, even as co-AC. But I don't agree with Vaaish that just because AMTL PDF are different from most PDF's and Ultramar PDF's are different from most PDF's, that therefore the AMTL PDF should be similar to Ultramar PDF's.

I too would prefer current main Skitarii list to be steered back by Vaaish into more of a defensive force. Then we would have E&C's Armoured Division and STM's eventual explorator list to represent more offensive side of AMTL.

Personally I am most interested in E&C's Armoured Division but that is purely down to my current model availability. However I am keen for the key unit stats to be bottomed out in the main Skitarii list because these will also have a knock-on impact on Armoured Division (and also STM's FW Stenburg and Explorator lists).

Cheers

James

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I didn't think it would be honourable to take a six month holiday away from actively playtesting the list (only developing based on online feedback is not good enough as far as I'm concerned).

Of course, the consequence of doing the honourable thing has apparently been to delay the supplement's publication, rather than hasten it. Oh well.

Like I said in PM, I should have listened to advice and been a selfish ass back in december, rather than now.


It's just a list idea. It's Vaaish's call to decide whether to develop it or not.

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For me the important thing is how we proceed from here rather trying to rake over past. Hopefully can tweak Skitarii so does nt delay your supplement- I presume that other lists are also being finalised.

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Supplement lists:


Legio Destructor - Seems complete.
(Legio Gryphonnicus) - Complete.
Knightworld - Seems close to completion.
Defensive style Skitarii PDF - Not being actively worked on.

Black Templars - Complete (has been unchanged for a long time) ? Needs moderate playtesting? If not ready then the EUK BT list is ready instead.
Imperial Fists - Needs moderate playtesting.

Atillan Rough Riders - Needs heavy playtesting? Unsure how much testing Rug's done.

Ork Gargant Bigmob - Close to completion, needs some focused testing on some aspects.
Ork Speed Freaks - Complete.
Ork Grot Horde - Balance doesn't matter, it's a joke list.
Ork Stompy List - Very close to completion. 1 formation type left to heavily playtest (Commandos in Warkoptas).
Ork Blood Axes List - Needs light playtesting (it's based off of an already well-regarded list by Nealhunt)

Eldar Titan Clan - In heavy playtesting and progressing well.

Of all the lists, the Rough Riders & the Skitarii PDF seem to be lagging the furthest, I must check with Rug to see how much testing of the RR list he got done.

For the rest, I'd hope we can wrap up playtesting on all of the remaining incomplete lists within the next six months at most.

Having a Skitarii Armoured Division list is a new idea (although they've been present in the plot of the supplement for eight months), but Armoured lists are really easy to balance IMO, shouldn't take long to pin it down once/if playtesting begins.

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I've offered to work with E&C at every opportunity to reconcile the differences in the list and what he wants for his supplement and accepted Moscovians help in the matter, however, E&C has been rather uncooperative about this in any regard. Since he has basically refused to work with me unless I effectively take dictations from him on the PDF list (this is the feeling I got from our conversations since since he didn't seem to think much of compromising, apologies if this wasn't the intent), I'll be doing my best to incorporate some of his ideas into the list to allow it to fit the supplement better without his support.

Now, where does that leave us?
My belief is that the way in which the player uses the force will greatly determine how defensive it is. They don't need to be smacked with a trout and forced to ONLY play a list defensively but there should be that flexibility available in the Skitarii list. It came out toward the end of my discussions with EC that he wants to have defensive installations as part of the list. In fact, this seems to be the only real sticking point that would prevent the current list being used in the supplement. Personally, I don't understand why this must be the case for the list to work in the supplement since some aspects like walls or missile silos can either function as scenario specific unit types or plain scenery without detrimental effect on the back story for the supplement.

My proposal is to adjust the direction of the existing skitarii list to include some of the Majoris types that EC has compiled and to figure out a good way of implementing the Defense Laser and Missile Silo as well as perhaps create weapons variant Praetorians. I think that if we can do this, combined with what we've got in the test lists we will have a list that adequately supports the supplement while maintaining the flexibility in the skitarii list I believe is core to represent the multitude of situations where Skitarii would be deployed outside of defensive roles described in the supplement.

My thoughts on how to accomplish the Laser and Missiles would be to see about implementing them similar to Eldar web gates and Necron Tomb complexes. This could perhaps be expanded to the other objectives as well if the objectives placed on your half the table were allowed to be replaced. I think this is a reasonable solution since it would allow the skitarii to garrison around the objectives which one would think that they would do in a defensive battle anyway. These are just initial ideas and are open to discussion.

Armored division list can be developed as well and should fill the gap with the superheavies and other tanks we've pulled from the current list.

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-Vaaish

I've offered to provide you with a list of elements required. You have not replied.

I think you should just develop your Deployed Army list and do the PDF list later, rather than squashing both together and creating one over stuffed list that could never be balanced. The supplement will just have to wait.

That you think the absence of defensive installations is the only serious issue shows you have not understood the requirements of the supplement list... Indeed you haven't even read the storyline.

And that doesn't even touch upon the very large internal imbalance problems that you will not consider addressing.

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That's not quite the reasoning behind it. AdMech deploys large scale war machines across the galaxy, creates Majoris in warzones, sends forces out from the forgeworlds on explorator missions or offensive operations as well as provides for the defense of the forgeworld itself should the need arise. Unlike the relationship between your typical PDF and IG, the skitarii don't seem to be divided into a specific force dedicated only to defense of the forgeworld and a specific force dedicated to fighting off world. Since all of the missions mentioned above likely require the presence of the skitarii, a strictly defensive force confined to the forgeworld doesn't make sense within the fluff. Since the Ultramar PDF is more of a mix of IG and PDF and deploys at times with the Ultramarines on offensive missions, it fits with the variety of missions the skitarii perform better than a regular Imperial PDF force and is why I decided that the Skitarii PDF list should be capable of both offensive and defensive play styles.

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-Vaaish

You've re defined PDF army as one that conducts offensive operations.

And that's why your list doesn't match the requirements of the supplement. Sorry but it just doesn't.

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You don't get to play that card on this one EC. I asked for that repeatedly and you gave me a list of things that were referenced in the supplement and used by the skitarii mid-afternoon yesterday. I responded to it looking for a compromise. You flat out refused. The only thing since you've sent was a PM mentioning that you could give me a point by point, but you didn't see the point in doing so. That doesn't exactly call for a response. If you have a point by point summary, go ahead and send it, feedback is always welcome.

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-Vaaish

Are you sure you want to take this view, EC? Your're saying regardless of the content of the list itself, simply because my definition doesn't match yours, you are refusing to use the list in your supplement?

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-Vaaish

I'm not going to use a Deployed Army armylist in a supplement disengenously labelled as a PDF list. Doubly so if it has serious and obvious internal balance issues.

I'll send you a point by point if you want, but quite honestly I don't think you're prepared to compromise your vision of what "PDF" means to you. Nor do i think are you prepared to have an army list that has a reasonable number of list construction options. Nor do I believe you're prepared to address the internal imbalance issues.

The supplement will just have to be delayed indefinitely or cancelled, and I only have myself to blame for needlessly and foolishly handing the ACship to you.

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Vaaish

I might not agree with you on that but that is your take on it as AC. It's certainly a change in direction from the way the list started. I can't speak for anyone else but I had nt really grasped this change until last few days. It's probably my fault or not understanding clearly enough your explanation of changes.

Are you not concerned that if list tries to have too wide a focus it just becomes an unwieldly list? Look at L&TD- I know Tim feels that way about that list. A few people have commented that it would be better to have 2 more streamlined focussed lists rather than one that tries to do everything.

Why not just make a few tweaks to further shift list back into more of a defensive role in nature?

Thanks

James

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This here is the source of the conflict. E&C belives that an army capable of both offensive and defensive campaigns should have one list for each style, while you believe that such an army should have one list capable of both.

I don't think there's compromise possible here.

I think it's a more change in semantics than any particular direction change in the list itself. If you look at the list test D now in comparison to the current released version of the list, there aren't a a whole lot of core differences. Stuff has been moved around a bit, Robots have made an appearance and IG equipment has been further reduced. In a tabletop sense, the list still plays much as it always has: it's a fairly slow moving list. Very little moves faster than the speed of infantry and there is a heavy focus on hypaspists and Ordinatus. It's a list that I believe is starting to feel more unique and AdMech than what we've had up till now. It's also a list that I think can play defensively and offensively. Offensively you can take transport Minorus and Chimedons to give your troops a bit of speed to maneuver, while defensively you've got options to boost the resilience of your hypaspists and provide artillery support or FF support. I think its a bit more defensive in scope due to most armor or support options moving at the speed of infantry, but capable of being played whichever way the scenario dictates.

In a functional sense, the list we have would be mostly unchanged from one specifically targeting a fortified defensive style play. What you WOULD see is a loss of fast transport (you are fortified, you don't need to move if the enemy is coming to you) and things like defensive walls, strongpoints, and weapons installations; however, the core of the options available would be identical to the current test list.

I don't believe the PDF list should be pidgeonholed into a strict fortified defense list like siegemasters. I think this is a very limited perspective and one that is better suited to a list other than the existing PDF list. That doesn't mean I'm not willing to work in options that overlap that syle list in order to give EC something he can use and I think it can be done in a way that makes the list even more unique. It's why I proposed adding limited installation options as objectives for Skitarii.

TLDR: It seems the core of the impasse is that EC wants high tech siegemasters for his supplement to showcase the Skitarii PDF which is counter to what I see is required to adequately show a defensive force and ultimately too limited in scope to represent the skitarii as a whole.

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-Vaaish

Mobile elements are not precluded in the supplement's requirements.

Vaaish, before I write up what will inevitably be a rather large essay, I emplore you to actually read the supplement you committed to provide a list for.

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