Nonsense. I've already told you my proposed PDF list is just a baseline starting point, and that more need to be added.

In the mean time, you want to remove all but 3 Ordinatus Majoris (down from what, 16 types?), a large cut to a supposedly core part of a supposedly PDF list.



Removing 90% of the Ordinatus Majoris types.
Moving Ordinatus Majoris from Core to Support.

You're clearly reducing the focus on Ordinati.

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As a complete outsider on this, what I am hearing is that E&C is looking for a "planet Defence Force" with the emphasis on

• Defence
• Local troops

What seems to have been provided is rather wider than this, providing

• Off-world capabilities (so a force that is mobile rather than 'static')
• Generic troops.

Is there a compromise here along these lines:-

Provide a somewhat generic list where the player has a choice of 'races' (like the Black Legion), and a variety of other formations.
However the player must choose either
a PDF style army that is essentially 'defensive'

• No air transport and little or no air cover
  
• Good AA and large static weaponry
• 'City walls' and possibly entrenchments etc.
• Only units from a single 'race'

OR an Off-world army with more generic forces
• Lighter units - limited WE, no Titans
• Air transport and air cover
• no 'entrenchments'
• May use formations from more than one 'race' - but would this come with some other penalty like the Chaos armies?

Wouldn't it be easier to simply write two lists...? They can share a lot of units - look at the Eldar lists.

And I've said repeatedly that we can add more types of majoris from that point. For that matter the only reason I even considered removing them in the first place was because you whined there were far to many unit types. And the only reason I considered moving the Majois is because you whined about the CLP.

I'm perfectly happy to leave the Majoris in the Core formations and give it access to the battle titan weapons. Of course that will just revert to whining there are too many unit types again. In any event, this is pointless and isn't getting the list finished which is the goal here. No, it's not what you might have done, but it's the direction I believe best fits the fluff and gives us a solid base for variant lists and on whether or not that represents a Skitarii PDF we'll just have to agree to disagree.

Once we get the list balanced we can see about a more defensive oriented list and a more armored variant list.

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-Vaaish

First I'm crying, now I'm whining.

No. I'm doing neither.

As the guy who has more Approved army lists than anyone else in the world I'm "crying" that you're doing it wrong. Your new list has little core theme of play style (certainly not that of a PDF), and it has obvious large internal balance problems. But no, I must be "whining" because I'm not getting my way, not because I'm concerned that you're failing and clearly need some advice to keep you from delivering a list that is of no use to the supplement (that being what you were specifically tasked with developing).

You took over from me as developer with a charge that you are now refusing to undertake, instead you are insulting me. That is not gentlemanly behaviour.

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My charge was to complete the skitarii list. This I am doing.

Look, I respected you as a developer. Because of that respect, I listened to you and started cutting down on options starting with the majoris. I also listened to you despite my disagreement and proposed a solution to the CLP issue that wouldn't alienate people who play the list. Your response to this has been to post about how I'm killing the focus on ordinatus by reducing options or trimming the wrong areas and how that the list isn't what you wanted because I refuse to come up with a handful or random titan configurations despite your proposed starting point that does far more cutting to the focus of the Ordinatus that I've ever proposed.

In fact, options for these units aside for a moment, the structure is functionally the same in both with just as much emphasis being placed on the minorus (which we have hard evidence show up fairly often) and the Skitarii infantry themselves. If you have a problem with the current skitarii list having no core theme (I disagree with this) then you should have just as much issue with your own proposed starting point. This is the problem with a list that has very little actual information to base units around. Personally, I believe the list as centered around the hypaspists and minorus with support from robots, majoris, and titans is very flavorful and true to the information we KNOW about the skitarii.

TBH, I really don't care that you are throwing credentials around right now, the way you've been acting about this hasn't reinforced my respect for you since I took over. I'm trying my very best here to have an open development where everyone knows whats going on and why with changes getting a fair amount of testing before they actually make it to a list. What you've been doing for the better part of the time since I took over the list has been downright divisive and not befitting a developer of your stature. I really don't care to continue this conversation here in an open thread. Feel free to PM me, but at this point I think our efforts would be better suited focusing on the list at hand rather than arguing.

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-Vaaish

Can we please try to keep this civil and friendly? ACs are in place to make final calls and judgements on lists and development. There will always be people who don't agree with their decisions - trust me, I know! - but they are there to make the tough choices and guide the focus of a list to their vision.

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https://www.cybershadow.ninja - A brief look into my twisted world, including wargames and beyond.
https://www.net-armageddon.org - The official NetEA (Epic Armageddon) site and resource.

I'm extremely concerned that Vasish's tangential course (developing the "wrong" list first) will be delaying the supplement's publication by upwards of a year. Personal conflict has no bearing on the situation.

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Currently doing a plastic scenery kickstarter

But his job as AC is to develop the list, not specifically develop the list described in the supplement.

And to be honest, all you'd need to do is add a couple of mentions of robots to the fluff, and you've got the Sternberg pdf list anyway.

Surely the Skittari Armoured Regiment list is even more presssed for time as it's also for the supplement and has only just been sketched out?

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My shifting projects

When he took over from me, he did it on the understanding that he'd develop the list specifically for the supplement.

Armoured lists are easy to test. I know this because i have an Approved one.

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Currently doing a plastic scenery kickstarter

Which you have raised and has been acknowledged.

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https://www.cybershadow.ninja - A brief look into my twisted world, including wargames and beyond.
https://www.net-armageddon.org - The official NetEA (Epic Armageddon) site and resource.

CS brought this to my attention. FWIW I am staying out of this hot debate. I fully understand and sympathize with Ben that his vision is not being adhered to as he sees it. Writing is a very personal thing and the supplements are no different. E&C can be miffed if he wants to.

However, I warned E&C at the time to stay on as the AC. (Vaaish, don't take this personally as your name wasn't even floating around for consideration at the time). He chose a rather bizarre road to step down despite my recommendations to the contrary. IMO this was a mistake to change AC hats in the middle of a supplement authoring and this argument is the result. You made your bed...

You guys are going to have to deal with it on your own. The publishing dates for the supplements have always been in the hands of the authors and I am not going to change that. If it gets done in a month or a year or never, I don't care. Okay, I care a little, but not enough to interfere with somebody's creation.

I do hope that Vaaish and E&C can perhaps take this off board, discuss it via email, and resolve it. When things are said publicly, it turns into a pissing match very quickly. The community can only benefit by having this resolved quickly.

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author of Syncing Forward and other stories...

It's a dog-eat-dog world, and I've got my Milkbone underwear on.

Don't worry, I don't. I didn't look for the position and even encouraged E&C to stay on as AC. We are currently discussing this via PM.

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-Vaaish

I shall await the latter list so that it can go in the supplement.

For now, it's clear from his PM's that Vaaish sees the former list as more important.

I'll check back in when the "deployed army" list is balanced and Approved, and work on the PDF list starts.

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Currently doing a plastic scenery kickstarter

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