James: I refer you to Steve54's excellent post : http://www.taccmd.tacticalwargames.net/ ... 58#p433958

It's also noted in that thread by me how much JJ goes to great pains to note in his design explanations how Epic army lists are never meant to be "generic"... For example see the doc I link to on page 2 of the thread.

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Well, when I recommended Vaaish to take over as AM developer, I asked him to make a priority of finishing the PDF list for the supplement. It seems he doesn't want to do this now (has swapped out PDF for "deployed army" theme) so it seems rather up in the air now.

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Biel-tan is a good example of a list that's obviously not generic - the core of the list (double-exarch big Aspect Hosts) is a formation that doesn't exist on any other craftworld. It also has a specialized unit (Void Spinner) that is both excellent and not found on any other craftworld either. Alaitoc is more generic than BT.

Hi E&C- I think is one of those times we are just going to have different opinions. I can understand you opinion even if I don't agree with it.

To me the reason that the initial core lists that I mentioned on previous post is simply so that GW could release future models down the line and include them in subsequent lists without having to go back and change the initial lists. They do relate to specific campaigns, which obviously helps with background flavour. To that extent these lists are specific.

However when I say that these six lists (3 rulebook lists, Biel-Tan, BL and L&TD) are generic core lists is that they can be used to make forces in a variety of build types.

The other variant lists are all much more tailored and much more clearly designed to represent a specific chapter/regiment/clan/craftworld etc.

(Note I did agree that Biel-Tan was not a perfect Eldar core list due to the inclusion of Void Spinners and the abundance of Aspect Warriors, but even so was pretty close).

Getting back to the AM I still think we can develop at least 3 distinctive lists. The more generic core lists and 2 more tailored variant lists. If we can get the core stats agreed in the main core list then that will make it easier to finish the 2 variant lists.

By the sound of it it is the 2 variant lists that you want for the supplement. We might need to change the names of the 3 lists to more accurately reflect their intended role but that is mere detail.

Cheers

James

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That debate is really about different concepts; the lists WI cited are the "core" lists of the game against which we measure other variant lists when they are created, though as pointed out they are usually not the "core" lists of the given race.

Wouldn't it be easier to just create 3 tightly focused lists, instead of spending effort on getting the internal balance right in a big 'core' list?

WI: The designer of the game is firm in saying that "generic" has no place in Epic, and that's good enough for me. I disagree that you can do much outside of each initial list's core remit without losing most of your games.

Ulrik: Yes.

Ginger has it right IMO, in that lists are often regarded as "core" only by dint of having been written first.

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Ok- so where are at this point? We have one main Skitarii list that has been playtested for a while. Vaaish has made some recent changes and has indicated that thinking about some further changes.

Some of these further changes move this main list further towards what E&C was proposing of a slimmed down trimmed Skitarii list. So we are moving in the right direction.

With the addition of E&C's Armoured Division list which incorporates many of the more IG elements (thus those people who have painted such models will still be able to use them in an AM list) we have less need of these IG elements in the main Skitarii list.

Cheers

James

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Unfortunately I think he's slimming it in the wrong direction, removing most Ordinatus types while leaving the AMTL element untouched, and at the same time attempting to distance itself from the PDF concept (shaving down the Ordinatus focus is actually part of this too, as it's going to be the PDF who use them the most)... I don't think that's going closer to what I need, or indeed asked him for when I stepped down.

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So what then is the concept of the current core list if not PDF? Given that it has been named PDF for some time.

What would you be proposing to do to the AMTL element in current list? Are you suggesting a PDF without Titan support?

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then we seem to be having some miscommunication. I assumed finishing the PDF list meant the current Skitarii list in the AMTL PDF which is what I've been working on. This list should be suitable for both a deployed army and one stationed on a forgeworld. I've always considered this to be more in line with the Ultramar Auxilia that serves both as the first line of defense against invaders as well as being capable of being deployed to other areas of the Imperium (and has been deployed). This is where my comments about the offensive nature come from. Basically this is what you'd expect to see from a Skitarii detachment that's deployed on the front lines of some world or back on the forgeworld itself. It is the self contained core of an AdMech army without defensive installations or heavy use of armored formations.

In other words the PDF force is the sum total of the non-titan military capability of a forgeworld. For lack of better terms, it contains regiments that are deployed to off world warzones as well as functioning as the primary defensive force for the forgeworld itself. I've never thought of the Skitarii list as simply a force that is only on the forgeworld.

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-Vaaish

Vaaish has apparently now decided that the new theme for the "core" list should be "Skitarii on the attack".
That being essentially the antithesis of a PDF list.


Something similar to the reduced choices of titans seen in my armoured list. (but still comparatively massive - offering more choice in Titan types than most lists have in types of unit, period, in addition to all the units in the core part of the list itself).

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Vaaish, in the 40k setting a PDF is an army that is stationed to defend a planet, 99 times out of 100 it is recruited from the planet it is stationed on. It is not an offensive army.

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Please refer back to my comments about how I see the Skitarii PDF as more in line with the Ulramar PDF rather than your back world PDF.

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-Vaaish

Please go look up PDF on lexicanum or similar.

Ultramar Auxiia are an extremely atypical example of a PDF, in fact functioning more as thrall armies to the Ultramarines than as a normal PDF.

If you want to develop a list themed around a Skitarii attack force, you should change the name of the list, because Planetary DEFENCE Forces generally don't go out and attack things, as a rule.

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