I really don't think the list needs 8 different types of indirect firing Ordinatus (13 if ord majors stay as they are). I'd rather see the CLP removed and that figure reduced to 5/9.

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with no CLP, what Indirect Fire options are there? The only options I can see are the Support Missile, or the Golgotha-pattern Majorus (which is basically just a bunch of support missiles.)

Support Missiles yes. The supposedly iconic weapons of the mechanicus that in fact are never taken.

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I know for myself, I don't take them because I loathe one-shot weapons. It's the same reason I never take Vultures or Deathstrikes in my Guard army.

Lets leave total removal of the CLP as a last stop though. For starters we will drop the non ordinatus armed Majoris. We will also leave it at just the existing three ordinatus weapons and add in additional types in the future.

Second, lets put a surcharge of 50 points on using a CLP to grant indirect fire to it's detachment. If this isn't enough then we will look at the CLP only granting indirect fire to the unit that takes it which will effectively kill the minorus clp. That would make me sad since I really like my conversion of it

Other than their high cost, support missiles on a minorus aren't a bad option. You have high odds of the detachment surviving until turn three and three missiles are really all you need.

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-Vaaish

50pts still leaves ord mars as massively overpowered.

Conversely, you've just made AML and inferno ords with CLP upgrades not worth taking at all...

... You might have balanced your favourite quake ords, though.

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heh. I was waiting for that. The impossible situation. You can't increase points to the level that an option that's never taken and already rather expensive is "balanced" without also making everything else not worth it's points nor can you leave it as is because it becomes a "no brainer" in an attempt to force the conclusion that it needs to go entirely. Lets stop playing games with this.

No one takes the Mars with a 175 point upgrade just to indirect fire it's 10bp much less a 225 point upgrade... didn't you tell me that upgrades aren't taken 95% of the time? What makes this so much different that people will be flocking to a detachment that clocks in at 725 points for a single non-fearless activation?

Look at the AML and Inferno. You can't even take the inferno since it's a scout weapon so no issue there. That leaves you with the AML. It's cheap, just 25 points. Even with the extra points you are looking at a 500 point formation making it 100 points cheaper than taking a pair of quake cannons. That's still competitive with the cost of direct fire minorus especially with the increased chassis speed.

I get your perspective EC, I really do, but I also disagree with throwing out most of the list. The core is there and it's a decent core. True it needs refinement and testing, but there's absolutely no reason to chuck it out and start from scratch. What I've proposed significantly reduces unit count by your numbers to a level that is in line with existing balanced lists. That is plenty without also stripping the flexibility that is central to the AMTL lists. It also makes the quake+clp less attractive which might be enough to push people to other options. Does it also make the AML a bit more expensive, yes but not prohibitively so. And the Mars? well that's also pretty prohibitively priced at a little under 1/3 of your points. So lets stop throwing up cute little impossible situations and work on the list at hand.

I'm trying to work with you here EC, but you aren't making it easy and its very much starting to feel like you are attempting to derail progress.

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-Vaaish

Dude 10bp with disrupt and ignores cover firing 200cm indirect plus 6 void shields and 4x AA shots for 25pts more than an arty co with a hyda is way out of line. It's completely broken, it will nuke ork and ig armies with absurd ease, and yes, it's my fault for not spotting just how big a problem the CLP Ordinatus was in the first place.

And remember, I told you that the 5% of upgrades that get taken generally include one of two things: an SC or AA.

The ability to add indirect fire to an already great weapon system that also comes with Aa? Sure, an instant buy.

You clearly think that CLP's are the bees knees, but the truth is you just can't balance them when you're trying to stick to using a pricing scheme that was designed for a completely different list (and that doesn't even work all that well there either; quakes + CLP outnumber other bp weapons + CLP's ten to one in war gryphonnes lists).

I forgot that you can't do inferno ordinati anymore, that was one of my changes aimed at reducing the silly amount of units in the list, of course.

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Except, it's not an instant buy or we'd be seeing it show up in everyone's list. It will never be an instant but either because of the price and fragility of a non-fearless formation. Heck, if it's that much of a problem we can even move the majoris to the support slot to emphasize it's rarity and keep it from taking upgrades.

I think that the CLP adds a cool dynamic to the list and an unique arty detachment without limiting everyone to one weapon choice. It creates a rather flavorful detachment and I think that complete removal should only be a last resort.

Anyway moving on from this, I've had a chance to work a bit with the robots again and I'm coming to the conclusion that even with fearless we can't do a whole lot to make them viable simply due to the size of the formation. Fluff wise we could make the colossus two maniples and double it but it makes them expensive and leans toward a robot heavy list which is not the purpose of the core skitarii list.

The other alternative is to give them a rule similar to And They Shall Know No Fear. eg. It takes 2 BM to supress a robot unit or kill a unit in a broken formation and the unit is only broken if they have 2 bm per unit in the formation.

That should make them far more resilient and show that they aren't prone to the same morale issues as regular troops either through cunning programming or blatant disregard for incoming fire.

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-Vaaish

Would it be possible for an Ordinatus with a CLP to count as a Support Formation instead of Core? That might discourage them without forbidding them. One of the reasons I think people take them so frequently is they are a solidly useful choice that also happens to be Core, unlocking cheap Support activations without having to get another (expensive) Core choice.

If you can't see how obviously and hugely overpowered mars + CLP is, then there's clearly no need for me to be offering my opinions here.

I wish you the very best in balancing this list for the supplement in the next few months, but for now, I'm done here.

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Personally, I'd be perfectly happy if the CLP was restricted to affect AMLs and QCs (instead of all barrage weapons); I think it is decidedly odd to fire flamethrowers and sonic beams indirectly...

I just had occasion to try the Minoris with 2xAML+CLP ; They seem priced about right, losing MW and some range for a 100 point discount.

However, if we want to see Minori in front line roles, they need to be cheaper. As a 500 point formation it crumples entirely too fast if it is not safe at the back of the line. Perhaps reduce the Minorus hull by 25 points, and pricing the Ordinatus CLP at 75 points? Artillery Minori are unaffected, frontline Minori get a boost and artillery majori gets more expensive, all of which seem desirable goals.

Just a random thought, in my ideal world nothing heavily armored would have indirect fire. No real world artillery is, AFAIK, heavily armored, simply because they're not meant to be attacked and it would be a waste of resources.

In other lists, the vulnerability of artillery balances out the lethality and the ability to strike from a safe position, not so in the AM lists.

I would not like to see that CLP removed from the list.

I do think it's odd that the Mars Ordinatus could benefit from a CLP (it hadn't occured to me before). If there's a way to restrict that particular formation it would be good. It is very powerful but really, it just doesn't make sense for a sonic weapon to be able to fire indirectly.

I have no problem with any other use of the CLP and it should be retained in the list with the one restriction mentioned above.

I don't envy you Vaaish but I would ask that you remember what the majority of the members have voted for in previous (and present) polls.

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Biel-Tan Void Spinners and those Squat heavy artillery pieces seem fairly durable.

I think over-engineered artillery is an iconic part of the AdMech list, and frankly necessary to make it playable.



How about just dropping their price? Robots are excellent candidates to be cheap expendable cannon-fodder units anyway. In their present form, I think Castellans are worth no more than 200 or even 175 points. Crusaders actually seem fine at 150, when intermingled with another formation they are a nice protection against CC. Perhaps add Infiltrate, to give them a healthy engage range.