Ok everyone, here's where we are. There have been a few things that have come up that needs clarification and/or whining. So I've decided to move ahead with the second draft list just to keep everything on the same page since there's a lot of clutter in the old thread. There's been no change to the Titan list from the previous draft. I'm pretty certain we can call that one done. Here's the changes in this version of the Skitarii list:

Removed the 3 forge knight option
Removed Rapiers from Infantry Support
Removed Mole Mortars from Infantry Support
Secutors secondary fire mode changed to MW5+
Colossus armor changed 3+ to match Marine dreadnoughts
Sagitarii gain the option to swap plasma cannons for mole mortars.
Sagitarii may add rapiers
Sagitarii gain access to the minorus
Ordinatus Minorus increased to 15cm
Corvus pods now grant 10cm movement bonus to Ordinatus

DISCLAMER: ONLY THE SUMMARY SHEET STATS HAVE BEEN UPDATED FOR THE DRAFT

Forge Knights.
Formation size of 3 has consistently underperformed and with colossus and sagitarii there are other options in the point bracket.

Sagitarii, Rapiers and Mole Mortars.
As part of the infantry support option they didn't really fulfill the goal... Of course this was tried to a degree in 3.16 probably with similar results so this should be no surprise. Instead I've collapsed the mole mortar into the sagitarii as a choice similar to the marine dreadnought and given sagitarii the option to take rapiers to bulk the formation a bit for a cost. This option isn't finalized in cost or number.

Sagitarii now have access to the minorus. I'm leaving this to the whim of the player so you can have a firepower heavy slow unit or a faster transported one. We'll see how this goes.

Secutors.
This should help fix the "issue" with gaming the range since the longer range shot now uses MW rules.

Minorus.
Despite E&C's passionate argument, I really think that it needs a 5cm boost have more utility and to bring the corvus pod into alignment.

Corvus pod.
Now grants a flat 10cm speed boost to ordinatus only. May change.


Things to visit in the future:
Crusaders with AV rather than LV
Colossus as fearless.
Get the allies percentage to allow for more titan support without leaving it open to activation abuse with thunderbolts.

_________________
-Vaaish

The inclusion of IG units (macharius, leman russ, hydra) make the list look like better IG, plus extra awesome Ad-Mech things as well (too many unit types obscuring the theme).

The minori company with just free or 25pt upgrades are now clearly underpriced, putting out better damage than an SHT company, cheaper, with comparable resilience and the same speed and integral AA. 50pt gun minori are even better. A fair sized price increase or preferably a return to the previous 10cm speed (which slways felt balanced to me over the last few years) is needed.

Attached transport minori are now clearly not worth taking as they're too slow for their high price, but the upgrade price looks ok for the gun armed ones so you can't drop the price without changing the way army lists are paid for.

The list needs that ork WE transport special rule that I kept forgetting to add.

I like having robots in the list.

I like the sagetari stats. Rapiers ain't worth taking though.

_________________
Currently doing a plastic scenery kickstarter

Are we looking at the same list? It's in no different shape than the previous draft, just a bit more refined. Hydras were reduced down to a max of 1 per core formation from the separate detachment of 3 that was there when I took the list on and the upgrade. The russes are the same as what you put in, just the plasma cannon changed to remove slow firing. Mecharius was one of your additions as well. This list has far less in common with guard than it did when I started.

The minorii company is exactly the same as when you had the list save for the +5cm base speed increase and a net -5cm speed decrease for transport minorii. That change alone wouldn't affect any of the damage output or resilience points you bring up.

Rapiers are one of those things that just doesn't seem to have a place... any thoughts on making them worth taking?

_________________
-Vaaish

I wanted to remove the IG tank units. People kept demanding they stay. That doesn't make their inclusion right. IMO only the Hydra is partially justified, and that marginal (the list would more emphasise the ordinati if they were your main AA choice). Possibly a robot could gain AA too?

Slow speed was meant to be the down side of the minorii compared to SHT's. Now they're just (much) better. Yes 5cm (both ways) really is that important.

Try a support formation for rapiers. They're not Going to be bought as an upgrade in this army list when 25pts gives you an upgraded gun on a minoris.

_________________
Currently doing a plastic scenery kickstarter

I'll probably be in the same boat with the others then as well. It would be an extremely hard sell to ditch those units at this point and I think that even with their inclusion the list is far different than the guard lists.

I disagree on the minorus. We'll see what happens in testing. I also disagree about transport minorus. They have their place with the sagitarii. There really isn't much else you'd want to use them for anyway. I should also note that with how you worded things, the ordinatus can't really take any of the free weapons since it only allows battle titan weapons. There are still some nice options in that 25 point bracket but it's not nearly so dire as you make it sound.

We had a support formation for the rapiers for a while there and it didn't lead to their inclusion. I'm almost to the point of saying the unit isn't fitting with how people use the AMTL list and it might just be removed.

_________________
-Vaaish

Redacted. I'm a grumpy sod when I've had 3 hours sleep.

In brief:

Put IG tanks in a new mechanicus armoured regiment list so they don't clutter up this one (even without them this list will have more unit types available than any other Epic army list by a ***massive margin*** due to all the Titan and ordinatus types).

Compare gun minori to standard SHT's. For example stormblades to Plasma Cannon majori. They are obviously better and are cheaper.
Compare transport minoris to ork fortress. It is a lot worse and is more expensive. Transport Marjoris is just laughable. 0pt weapons are referenced on the ordinatus data faxes.

Remove (the iconic mechanicus) Rapiers then.

_________________
Currently doing a plastic scenery kickstarter

OK; I'll try this list for my next test game.

Comments:

The new Sagitariii formation looks good; I'll give it a try, with attached Rapiers and a transport Minorus. I rather like the Rapiers here, they give the option of adding to the unit count in a reasonably cheap way.

Both Gun Minorus, Transport Minorus and Infantry support looks like attractive demi-century upgrades.

AV Crusaders sounds good.

I still think all robots should be Fearless. If that makes them more expensive, then so be it, but Fearless doesn't make them any less vulnerable to being shot at and breaking before they do anything, which seems to be their main weakness.

I think Gun Minorus Company (BTW, should they be "Ordinatus Minorus Century", in keeping with the roman-style naming?) compares rather closely to the Guard SHT.

Minervan Stormblades cost 500, Plasma Cannon Minori cost 475 - almost the same
SHTs have DC3, so don't break so easily.
Minori perform much worse in engagements, with lower DC and poorer saves. They are more vulnerable to deep strikes.
Minori have shields, so can absorb and regenerate shooting. They are less vulnerable to artillery.
Minori damage output is 9x 60cm MW2+, SlowFire plus 6x 30cm AP5+/AA6+
Stormblade damage output is 6x 45cm MW2+, SlowFire plus 3x 30cm AP5+ plus 6x 30cm AP4+ plus 6x 45cm AT5+
The plasma minori have an advantage at 45-60cm range, but within 45cm the advantage shift to the Stormblade.

If we compare Volcano cannon minori to Shadowswords, the Minori are 50 points more expensive, the DC3 vs Shields difference remains, and the loadout is exactly identical, except the minori get AA from their HBs.

TL;DR: SHTs and Minori are subtly different in ways that I think reflect their parent army lists rather well, but I don't think one is very much better than the other.

E&C, I wouldn't say Minori are clearly better than Superheavies.

They trade about 1/3 of their armor (55% save rate vs 75%) and a DC for a pair of voids.

The PBG version compared to the Stormblade has the PBG and a pair of AA-mount heavy bolters instead of a PBG, Heavy Bolter, two Twin Heavy Bolters, and two Lascannon.

We also need to remember that IG SHTs almost always will be Fearless, or have a Fearless unit in the case of a SHT Company. Minori don't have that option. That makes Minori far easier to destroy once broken. They also break easier than SHTs.

That 25pt single/100pt company difference may be justified (I think it is), or maybe they should start at the same costs, but they are not 'clearly better'.

_________________
SG

Ghost's Paint Blog, where everything goes that isn't something else.

With the greatest of respect, my experience tells me to disagree. I'd be quite surprised if these new Minoris core formations don't end up ~75pts too cheap.

_________________
Currently doing a plastic scenery kickstarter

Well, that's what playtesting's for. Not trying to discount what you've done so far, but if they turn out to be worth more, the price can rise. 475 per company would be in the realm of possibility, but I'd not pay more than 500/Coy.

Looks like these minoris will take half the hits to destroy in a single turn too (6.5 vs. 12) Of course that goes up for the minorus if it lasts the turn, but not for the SHT, and it discounts breaking. A minorus would break in a single activation from 4.25 hits, a SHT from 5 on average.

_________________
SG

Ghost's Paint Blog, where everything goes that isn't something else.

You'll need 7 hits on the formation before you lay one hit on a Minoris hull.

You'll have lost your first SHT by then.

_________________
Currently doing a plastic scenery kickstarter

Okay, let's go for company stats.

Average number of hits to destroy the first minorus: 10.5 (6 void + 2 * 9/5).
Average number of hits to destroy the first SHT: 12 (3*4)

Average number of hits to destroy two minorii: 15
Average number of hits to destroy two SHT: 24

Note that with the greater number of DC SHTs have that you are likely to "spread" more failed armor saves among the tanks than with Minori - you can potentially take six damage (24 hits) without losing a tank, which would destroy a minorus formation outright (average 19.5 hits to destroy outright).

_________________
SG

Ghost's Paint Blog, where everything goes that isn't something else.

I'm only seeing reference to CLP, lasburners, and CC weapons here. There's nothing there letting them take PBG, VMB, or inferno cannons.



That's going to invalidate collections and I doubt that will be good for the list right now. I'll put that down as a future possibility. Probably need to leave the skitarii list as is while building that one and then pull the units so there isn't a gap in usability.


This is only true if you compare things to the minorus company. A single minorus purchased for 175 points comes out the same in points as a single guard superheavy and I'd be fairly reticent to say the minorus is better. The minorus coy discounts the minorus by around 50 points each comparatively. Even then, once weapons are purchased, you end up pretty close in value.

Anyway, there's a lot of theoretical going around. Lets see what happens on the table and go from there. Remember, this isn't a final list; it's just a draft. Nothing has changed with the officially released lists in the last couple months. These drafts are meant to be the playground to work toward a release so that when a release happens we hopefully don't end up with people dropping the list.

Yes, DS i'm looking at you... and Sigil... Keep commenting. In fact, the more people talking the better at this stage. I hope we are doing a decent job keeping everyone's collections usable and giving flavor to the list.

_________________
-Vaaish

I'd never noticed that it specifically states Battle Titan weapons in the Datafaxes. I'm not sure it's neccessary, but it does keep people from spamming cheap PBG minori.

_________________
SG

Ghost's Paint Blog, where everything goes that isn't something else.

I didn't say they could take all the 0pt weapons.

Anyways, I think I'm done.

_________________
Currently doing a plastic scenery kickstarter