ok. next step:

Neal, could you spill the beans on what you're planning for Tzeentech titans, the other three gods already have theirs in a list?

and everyone,

what weapons and variant models exist for chaos titans?

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Lots of pricing needed.

Basic principle is that the 'offiical' cult titans are generalists with load outs that people may not want as much.
BUT they are fearless.

or you can customize.

I think
1) the weapons list will need trimming.
2) we will probably have to set the titans to different prices, although i'd prefer if we could avoid it
3) we will definetly have to set the weapons to different prices. unavoidable, sadly
4) the gifts and mutations section will need a careful eye upon it and differential costing
5) The summarry sheet for this (with full 'step over' note and criticals will be very very big, but that's unavoidable at the moment.

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ok.

now hitting up Stuff of legends for extant titan weapons:

http://solegends.com/citcat911/c2119epi ... arts-m.htm
http://solegends.com/citcat911/c2116epi ... titans.htm
http://solegends.com/citcat911/c2120epi ... tans-m.htm

I'm wondering at the moment if there's a signature weapon on each of the Cult Titans that should be left off the swap options list (in order to differentiate them from their generic cousins).
Likewise, it makes sense to tie the list as far as possible to existing parts that people might have, and there seems to be a lot that aren't currently used in the Ad-mech Titan list.

I think we all agree it should not be Ad-mech plus stuff, but be reasonably different with only a few core weapons shared.

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In the Suns of Damnation list I made the Tzeentch titans geared more towards FF. That increases the value of the basic chassis. That was offset with the relatively lesser value of their weapon choices.

I suppose that could be used in this list, with an appropriate point structure.

where is this legendary suns of damnation list?

EDIT: Never mind, had to search via google instead of on the site.

viewtopic.php?f=82&t=16432

I'll steal what weapons aren't already represented in the list and make up some 'typical' cult Tzeentech titans from your list.

I'll also port the weapons across into the options list.

Anyone especially dislike the Warplord, Revealer and Thrall as titan names?
(I'm not so hot on thrall, but it's better then 'Igor')

Other stuff:

I am definitely nicking the idea for a 'hive' on the titans back - sceamers, raptors, nurgle drones, fiends, something Khornate? something Slaaneshi?
anything with skimmer or jumpacks is fair game.
Formation comes with the transport upgrade but acts as a separate detachment.


I REALLY REALLY like the idea of a titan cult in the general sense. All other formations are Initiative 3+ and need to be within 20cm of a titan to get the initiative bonus. Could interact really nastily with the factions rule too.

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I'm not keen about upgrades to specific weapons.

If you've got two titan types which can carry 4 and 3 weapons each, 10 weapon types and 6 weapon upgrades (one per god, one undivided and a 'blank' one) that's 1x3*10*6 +1x4*10*6 possible combinations.
that's 180 reaver variants and 240 warlord variants before we look at other optional upgrades. And that's allowing only a single weapon upgrade per titan.

The weapon upgrades would be of varying use depending on the weapon, (eg first strike ain't much use on an artillery piece) and would be of varying value to match. You'd have to price them for their optimal role, which means they'd almost certainly be overpriced for anything else and thus unlikely to be taken. So if you get an upgrade that's only worth taking with a single weapon, either fold it into the weapons stats and price or leave it out.

All of the EA or FF bonuses in the draft list are based around battleheads for a reason.

A cult Tzeentech titan could well have the bonuses and they will be reflected in it's cost or in reduced firepower elsewhere, exactly as Neal did in the dedicated list.

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Thinking about the Titan worship rule, it'd also be a nice equivalent to the God Machines rule - should somebody succed in taking down (or breaking) a titan then the support formations being shepherded by it are suddenly a bit less effective. This is the reward to the opposing player for breaking a titan, and a slight pressure on the player to not rely on too many warhound equivalents.

I'd been considering a special rule where on more then 6 BMs the player must roll a (d6 + 6) each acivation. Roll less then the BMs and your titan gets replaced by a great spawn. Such is the price of failing the dark gods.


Yup, I can't write special rules.
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Cult Criticals.

The undivided critical should stay the same as the imperial. easier. Nurgle and Slaanesh have both got unique crits. Should Tzeentech and Khorne?

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It's also on page 1, the first post I made in this thread.


That's one of my favorites. I can't recall who came up with the idea originally, but it was a Blight Drone hive in a Nurgle legion.

Khorne and Slaanesh don't really have anything in the jump/skimmer range but you could copy the Imperator leg bastions. Or you could make some sort of "daemon gate" package that works like a portal for daemon formations.


I think this depends on the options for the transported units. If there are multiple transport options, then "+ separate formation" pricing doesn't really work well.


Thanks. I think for it to be functional, the cult formations should be 2+ per titan, instead of 3+. Otherwise, it really takes 3000 points to have any flexibility at all because a titan + 3 formations is a single ~1500 point block (1400-1800, probably).

I don't think they need to be a minimum figure. Titans are the focus of the list and if somebody wants to run pure titans, that should be allowed. I'd say allow them to take three per titan (Amtl is one, Stygians are 2). With the worship rule* they'd be a bit less attractive then normal.

* 'Slaves to the darkness' ? seems appropriate.


What about Marks? I'm considering if each god should get a specific battlehead.

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The minimum number of cult formations had several purposes.

First, it was to change the play style in order to distinguish the Suns of Damnation from "blue and yellow AMTL." Chaos titan legions should be noticeably different in play than AMTL. If someone wants a more traditional titan legion play style and organization, they can use the AMTL list.

Second, it was to keep the ratio of titans to non-titans in a relatively predictable range for balance. Too wide of a range becomes unpredictable in terms of unexpected min-max combos cropping up. Normal lists restrict the titans to a relatively small percentage. In the AMTL and OGBM lists, they have quite limited support options in order to force the army to be majority big WEs by points. The minimum/maximum number of cult formations was meant to force a middle ground.

Finally, it was to create more of the "Titan God" flavor, with worshipers flocking to them. After all, if you have living gods striding a planet, they should have their sycophants trailing in their wake.

If you don't like that, no problem, but I think it is necessary to find something that will make the chaos legions play differently than AMTL with funny names for their weapons.

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I like "Slaves to Darkness" as a rule name, but I just stuck it in the Initiative notes in the army list. Now that I think about it, if you want to force the proximity issue, the formations should probably bet +1 to all Initiative rolls, not just activation - more bonus = more incentive to stay close.

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Marks: I don't think they need to be set up specifically as battleheads. I would leave them fairly vague in terms of description so people can improvise their conversions as much as they like. If they have a battlehead, great. If not, they could use spikes, flames, tentacles or whatever.

I think everyone here agrees we should be aiming for something different to AMTL with funny weapon names. I completely agree with you on this.

But it's a titan list. If we want it to play differently, we have to make the titans play differently.

I quite like the current structure, where the 'marked' titans have fixed options and some bonus special rules/stats that are inaccessible to the custom undivided Titans. It seems like it could side step the issue in the AMTL list where people only seemed to take pairs of weapons.
In that case marks aren't needed as an optional option at all. The "Marked" titans would also give a way for them to play differently to the AMTL.


otherwise:

Brainstorming:

Marks give a single bonus fixed forward small arms attack:
(EA+2) for khorne
(EA+1), MW for Tzeentech
(EA+1),Ignore cover for Nurgle
(EA+1), First Strike for slaanesh
This was where i was going with the head options. I might keep them and just name them something else. Head and faces give a lot of character to a Titan.

OR

Marks give bonus to a particular action - khorne for engage, slaanesh for double, nurgle for sustain and tzeentech for stealing initiative

or

marks give a special rule that affects the titan.

or

Marks give a special rule that affects units near the titan - fits with the worship thing and would make it play a bit differently. That would also be incentive to take more support formations, rather then just forcing it.


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wepons in sol that i can't see in the amtl list:

Power saw
Power Ram
Battle Claw
Chaos Energy whip (already in draft list)
Trident
Harpoon?

I can certainly see a slight emphasis on closer range weaponry then the AMTL being possible.

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MajorWesjohnson uploaded these on Warseer. It's a Chaos Warlord from TitanIII: Cold Steel by Dan Abnett.
pics to big to host here.
http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthrea ... an-Weapons

it's a Warlord class titan with 2 scything talons, two different heavy bore weapons, some lighter armaments (Carapace firefight stuff) and a carapace missile of unknown type.

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I don't think this is possible. You can vary the speed or DC slightly so the titans may be a little bit better or worse at certain aspects, but they are still performing the same basic battlefield role. A Warlord is a Warlord is a Warlord.

but a subjegator is not a questor is not a warhound.

The warlord's a sticking point as something that big really needs to be a generalist, or at least capable in multiple roles.

But the smaller titans can be made differently.


Meh. I'm dissatisfied with my own argument.

OK. How do the Orks and Eldar lists play differently?

Orks are very much attrition - power fields don't come back up and they rely far more on grinding people down. The list is about Mad Meks but each titan can only have a limited about of customability compared to the AMTL list.

the Eldar list - hmmm. I don't know much about Eldar. Looking at it the amount of weapons per titan is lower but the individual weapons tend to be more powerful. Emphasis is upon either high disrupt BPs or precise MWs. You cannot kill of the enemy, you must surgically remove threats. Most things are short range with an emphasis on the fast assault.

AMTL tactics seem to basically involve hosing down the board with firepower. Seeking CC seems rare.

All of the titan lists rely on support formations being around to do specialist jobs that you can't waste a titan's activation on. the Chaos bunch won't be any different there.
I think the titan worship rule would affect gameplay style for most lists that people take, although yeah, it'd have no effect if they don't take support formations. I disagree with forcing them to be taken though.

Perhaps, rather then the AMTL smorgsboard of weaponry we could run with Angel of Caliban's idea and use gifts and mutations for the bulk of the list.
So there would be maybe 3-4 basic weapon types available, and then different gifts could be bought to upgrade that weapon. It'd make list building slightly different (and I'm still worried about balance) but wouldn't mean a desperately different gameplay.

still brainstorming: What if you had to buy 'sets' of mutations? So included in each set would be some ranged bonuses, a titan bonus and some CCW bonuses. You can take a purely shooty titan, but then you'll waste some of the gifts you've paid for.
Couple this with relatively restricted artillery weapon options and you'd have a titan force that looked similar to AMTL, but more inclined to close and engage, with deranged worshipers swarming around their feet.

Right. How do you design a formation of worshipers that would actually be useful in a titan assault?

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Helmets made of treadplate.

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Actually, I'd say a Questor pretty much is a Warhound, but I see your point. There is more diversity of role in the smaller units.


This could work. A "generalist bonus" might make those all-rounder units more competitive against specialist builds.


The easiest way is the normal "move/shoot/support" combo for the titans with worshipers initiating the assault. That means you want durable and mobile initiating formations. Durable so they can initiate assaults without being wiped out (and therefore not getting support fire), even in small numbers. Mobile so they can lurk nearby or behind the titan to avoid being picked apart before they get the chance to start a brawl.

Of course, that biases the titans towards FF, and doesn't really help out in terms of facilitating titan CC.