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Oh my god! They killed Horus!

 Post subject: Oh my god! They killed Horus!
PostPosted: Tue Dec 09, 2003 6:40 pm 
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Hi all,

    For the fluff the Heresy is coming, in my mind each legion probably has beween 500,000 (Ultramarines), and 150,000 (Space Wolves). I don't see them as having fixed legion sizes as some legions were more efficiant at recruiting than others, and some legions were more picky than others.

    First of all, what do you guys think about the legion sizes? And how do you see the legions being comprised? This is mainly because the battles are leading up to the assault on the Emperors Palace and I need to know who is going to be involved and what they had to attack the palace with. It would help if we had some kind of a structure but this is before there was a Index Astartes so it would be different for each legion. For example:

Space Wolves:

The Russ Royal Clan
10,000 Housecarls equipped with 50% terminator armour, 50% power armour, mainly assault weapons, a few ranged weapons but for tank busting and bunker busting not for ranged combat. Enough Land Raiders for the entire group. Enough thunderhawks to deploy the entire clan.
25,000 Warriors equipped with bolters, close combat weapons, plasma guns, melta guns, flamers, melta bombs. The odd missile launcher for bunker busting. Rhinos for the entire group. Enough thunderhawks to deploy the entire clan.

The Thor Clan (a typical clan, the rest of the armour would be comprised of clans of varying sizes with a simular composition)
1,000 Housecarls, equipped with 25% terminator armour and 75% power armour, mainly assault weapons, a few ranged weapons but for tank busting and bunker busting not for ranged combat. Enough Land Raiders for the terminators, the rest have rhinos. Enough thunderhawks to deploy the housecarls.
15,000 Warriors equipped with bolters, close combat weapons, plasma guns, melta guns, flamers, melta bombs. The odd missile launcher for bunker busting. Rhinos for half the group, drop pods for the rest.
500 Predators, deployed strike cruisers landing on the planets surface after the drop zone has been secured.

NOTE: The Space Wolves have adapted to a lack of transport in comparrison to other chapters by becoming drop pod specialists. They land most of there infantry by drop pods, with the armoured waves then being deployed by Strike Cruisers landing on the planets surface and/or teleporting.

Ultra Marines:
Some example battalions below - I see the Ultramarines as masters of combined arms and tactics. With a VERY rigid army formation in contrast with the Space Wolves clan based army. Each Battalion has it's own Strike Cruiser.

125th Armoured Battalion
2 Land Raider Companies
     3 Detachments of 3 Land Raiders
     1 Command Land Raider including the captain.

1 Predator Company
     3 Detachments of 3 Predators
     1 Command Predator including the captain.

1 Whirlwind Company
     3 Detachments of 3 Whirlwinds
     1 Command Whirlwind including the captain.


876th Mechanised Battalion
2 Tactical Companies of:
    3 Detachments of 3 Squads of 2 Fire Teams of 5 Marines (4 w/Bolters, 1 with either Specialist/Heavy Weapon) every squad will have a sergeant and a rhino, every detachment a X rank (Legion help needed!)
    1 HQ Detachment of 10 Marines, including the captain and a command land raider.

1 Battle Company of:
    1 Detachments of 3 Squads of 2 Fire Teams of 5 Marines (3 w/Bolters, 2 with Heavy Weapons) every squad will have a sergeant and a rhino, every detachment a X rank (Legion help needed!)
    3 Detachments of 3 Squads of 2 Fire Teams of 5 Marines (4 w/Bolters, 1 with either Specialist/Heavy Weapon) every squad will have a sergeant and a rhino, every detachment a X rank (Legion help needed!)
    3 Detachments of 3 Squads of 2 Fire Teams of 5 Marines (4 w/Bolt Pistols and Close Combat Weapons, 1 with a specialist weapon) every squad will have a sergeant and a rhino, every detachment a X rank (Legion help needed!)
    1 HQ Detachment of 10 Marines, including the captain and a command land raider.

1 Land Raider Company
     3 Detachments of 3 Land Raiders
     1 Command Land Raider including the captain.

586th Infantry Battalion

2 Tactical Companies of:
    3 Detachments of 3 Squads of 2 Fire Teams of 5 Marines (4 w/Bolters, 1 with either Specialist/Heavy Weapon) every squad will have a sergeant and either a taratula/thudd gun/mole mortar/rapier, every detachment a X rank (Legion help needed!)
    1 HQ Detachment of 10 Marines, including the captain and a command rhino.

1 Heavy Company of:
    1 Detachments of 3 Squads of 2 Fire Teams of 5 Marines (3 w/Bolters, 2 with Heavy Weapons) every squad will have a sergeant and a rhino, every detachment a X rank (Legion help needed!)
    2 Detachments of 3 Squads of 2 Fire Teams of 5 Marines (4 w/Bolters, 1 with either Specialist/Heavy Weapon) every squad will have a sergeant and either a taratula/thudd gun/mole mortar/rapier, every detachment a X rank (Legion help needed!)
    1 HQ Detachment of 10 Marines, including the captain and a command rhino.

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 Post subject: Oh my god! They killed Horus!
PostPosted: Wed Dec 10, 2003 6:40 am 
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3-4 squads makes a Platoon (Plt) and a Plt, is lead by a Lieutenant or LT. ?

Is that what you were looking for Tom? ?

In the SM TO&Es, a Det. = a Plt.

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 Post subject: Oh my god! They killed Horus!
PostPosted: Wed Dec 10, 2003 7:55 am 
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Looks good to me! It just happens that I have the WD which had Space Marine TO&E for SM1 (and I'm sure Legion4 has it too). I'll dig it out.

The mechanised units fit well for the Ultramarines as, IIRC, it was said in the abovementioned WD that Ultramarines have an unusually high number of techmarines and are thus able to maintain more vehicles.

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 Post subject: Oh my god! They killed Horus!
PostPosted: Wed Dec 10, 2003 1:01 pm 
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@Legion - Cheers dude, every list needs one of you!

@Mojarn - So do you reckon I should not use Infantry Battalions? Just the mechanised ones? I would love to see the SM TO&E if you have it :D

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 Post subject: Oh my god! They killed Horus!
PostPosted: Wed Dec 10, 2003 3:45 pm 
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Anytime I can help, Tom ! ?:;): ?And yes, my SM, IG, Orks, Chaos & Squats are pretty much organized with SM1 TO&Es. ?Many of my SMs and IGs are Mech units. ?Of course, I'm biased, I commanded a Mech Co. ! ?:laugh: ?But in either case, I like the mobility Rhinos/Land Raiders/Razorbacks give the SMs and Rhinos/Gorgons/Chimeras give the IG. ?:;):

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 Post subject: Oh my god! They killed Horus!
PostPosted: Wed Dec 10, 2003 5:17 pm 
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What about the Space Wolves? Do they seem feasible? My argument was that they suffered from an extreme lack of organisation in comparrison to Guillimans Ultramarines.

@Legion: I am with ya, gotta love mechanised inf, tho special forces and commandos/stormtroopers have always been one of my favourites!

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 Post subject: Oh my god! They killed Horus!
PostPosted: Thu Dec 11, 2003 1:56 am 
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Hi!

I think the SW's organization is okay, very nordic and disorganized.

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 Post subject: Oh my god! They killed Horus!
PostPosted: Thu Dec 11, 2003 3:17 am 
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Oh yes, I have a Salamander Air Assault Bn, and all my SM Rgts have T/Hawks. ?And my SWs are organized in 2 Rgts with Drop Pods, T/hawks and Drop Ships. My first duty assignment as a 2LT was to lead a Rifle Plt in the 101, and then became the Bn Air Ops Officer. ?So I look forward to Stormtroopers with Valkyries & Vultures for the IG too ! ?Ah ... the good old days ... :;):    Oh yeah, one of my SW Bns is organized based on modified SM2 standards, and it includes a Great Company ! :D

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 Post subject: Oh my god! They killed Horus!
PostPosted: Thu Dec 11, 2003 10:18 am 
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Here comes; I hope this gives some food for thought. This is from the SM armylist in WD 126. In the list it is stated that a marine legion was up to 20 regiments. Each regiment had three battalions plus up to six detachments of regimental support troops. Each battalion had three companies plus up to three support detachments. Each company had three detachments. In SM1 tactical detachments were larger than in SM2 (8 stands) but assault and devastator detachments were smaller (4 stands). Also, infantry & vehicles and other support could be freely mixed within a company so a company could, for example, include a detachment of assault marines, a detachment of Land Raiders and a Detacment of Land Speeeders.

It was possible to buy transport vehicles either as detachments or from battalion transport pool. The transport pool had vehicles up to the amount needed to transport all infantry in the battalion, but it was not required to take any. Regimental transport pools transported regimental support troops plus commander.

A regiment could have a maximum of 42 detachments.

A normal marine regiment armylist was as follows:
-1 Regimental command terminator stand.
-Up to 1 Battalion HQ per battalion (2 assault stands, 1 Land Raider, 1 Recon Land Speeder).
-Any number of tactical detachments (4 tactical & 4 support stands).
-Any number of assault detachments (4 assault stands).
-Any number of devastator detachments (4 devastator stands).
-0-12 Terminator detachments (4 terminator stands).
-Any number of support weapon detachments composed of
*5 Tarantulas or
*5 Rapiers or
*5 Mole Mortars or
*5 Thudd Guns.
-0-12 Dreadnought detachments composed of
*5 Contemptors or
*5 Deredos or
*5 Furibunduses.
-0-9 robot detachments.
-Any number of skimmer detachments composed of
*5 Jetbikes or
*5 Land Speeeders.
-0-4 Recon Detachments (2 Land Speeders).
-Any number of Bike Detachments (5 Bikes).
-0-12 Armoured Detachments composed of
*2 Land Raiders or
*3 Predators.
-0-12 Ordinatus detachments composed of
-3 Whirlwinds or
-3 Vindicators.
-0-6 Capitol Imperialis detachments (1 Capitol Imperialis)
-0-6 Drop Pod detachments (each detachments having enough assault pods to drop 2 infantry detachments). Deathwind and Support pods were available only if whole regiment was a drop regiment.

Space Wolves were frequently used in planetary assault missions so they included several of the specialized drop regiments. The Drop regiment organisation was as follows:
-1 Regimental command terminator stand.
-Up to 1 Battalion HQ per battalion (2 assault stands, 1 Land Raider, 1 Recon Land Speeder).
-0-8 tactical detachments (4 tactical & 4 support stands).
-Any number of assault detachments (4 assault stands).
-0-6 devastator detachments (4 devastator stands).
-0-12 Terminator detachments (4 terminator stands).
-0-6 support weapon detachments composed of
*5 Tarantulas or
*5 Rapiers or
*5 Mole Mortars or
*5 Thudd Guns.
-0-8 Dreadnought detachments composed of
*5 Contemptors or
*5 Deredos or
*5 Furibunduses.
-Any number of skimmer detachments composed of
*5 Jetbikes or
*5 Land Speeeders.
-0-4 Recon Detachments (2 Land Speeders).
-0-6 Bike Detachments (5 Bikes).
-0-4 Armoured Detachments composed of
*2 Land Raiders or
*3 Predators.
-0-4 Ordinatus detachments composed of
-3 Whirlwinds or
-3 Vindicators.
-0-6 Capitol Imperialis detachments (1 Capitol Imperialis)
-Any number of Drop Pod detachments (each detachment having enough assault pods to drop 2 infantry detachments OR 4 support pods OR 6 Deathwind pods OR 2 Dropships).
A drop regiment could also buy orbital support at 80% of the normal cost.

Blood Angels were often at the forefront of battle in sieges and boarding actions and city fighting because of their ferocity and predilection for close combat. A Blood Angel close assault regiment was organised as follows:
-1 Regimental command terminator stand.
-Up to 1 Battalion HQ per battalion (2 assault stands, 1 Land Raider, 1 Recon Land Speeder).
-0-12 tactical detachments (4 tactical & 4 support stands).
-Any number of assault detachments (4 assault stands).
-0-6 devastator detachments (4 devastator stands).
-0-12 Terminator detachments (4 terminator stands).
-Any number of support weapon detachments composed of
*5 Tarantulas or
*5 Rapiers or
*5 Mole Mortars or
*5 Thudd Guns.
-Any number of Dreadnought detachments composed of
*5 Contemptors or
*5 Deredos or
*5 Furibunduses.
-0-12 robot detachments.
-0-4 skimmer detachments composed of
*5 Jetbikes or
*5 Land Speeeders.
-0-2 Recon Detachments (2 Land Speeders).
-0-12 Armoured Detachments composed of
*2 Land Raiders or
*3 Predators.
-Any number of Ordinatus detachments composed of
-3 Whirlwinds or
-3 Vindicators.
-0-3 Hellbore detachments (1 Hellbore).
-0-6 Capitol Imperialis detachments (1 Capitol Imperialis).

-There had to be at least as many assault detachments as the combined number of tactical and devastator detachments.
-Blood Angel tactical and devastator stands had higher CAF than normal.
-Blood Angels could have up to six detachments mounted in tunnellers.

Dark Angels honoured the traditions of their ancestors by organising the three companies of the first battalion in a regiment as follows:

1st Company (Death Wing)
-0-2 assault detachments.
-0-2 devastator detachments.
-1-3 terminator detachments. These terminators don't count against the maximum of 12 limit in a regiment.
-Assault and devastator detachments may be upgraded to elite.

2nd Company (Iron Wing)
-0-3 tactical detacments.
-0-1 support weapon detachments.
-0-1 dreadnought detachment.
-0-1 robot detachment.
-0-3 armoured detachments.
-0-1 ordinatus detachments.

3rd Company (Raven Wing)
0-3 skimmer detachments.
1 recon detachment.
0-2 bike detachments.
-Raven Wing may make a free move at the beginning of the game.

Ultramarines had the largest number of techmarines and had access to superior numbers of support weapons.

-1 Regimental command terminator stand.
-Up to 1 Battalion HQ per battalion (2 assault stands, 1 Land Raider, 1 Recon Land Speeder).
-0-12 tactical detachments (4 tactical & 4 support stands).
-0-6 assault detachments (4 assault stands).
-2-12 devastator detachments (4 devastator stands).
-0-12 Terminator detachments (4 terminator stands).
-Any number of support weapon detachments composed of
*5 Tarantulas or
*5 Rapiers or
*5 Mole Mortars or
*5 Thudd Guns.
-Any number of Dreadnought detachments composed of
*5 Contemptors or
*5 Deredos or
*5 Furibunduses.
-Any number of robot detachments.
-Any number of skimmer detachments composed of
*5 Jetbikes or
*5 Land Speeeders.
-0-6 Recon Detachments (2 Land Speeders).
-Any number of Bike Detachments (5 Bikes).
-Any number of Armoured Detachments composed of
*2 Land Raiders or
*3 Predators.
-Any number of Ordinatus detachments composed of
-3 Whirlwinds or
-3 Vindicators.
-0-2 Hellbore detachments
-0-8 Capitol Imperialis detachments (1 Capitol Imperialis)
-0-6 Drop Pod detachments (each detachments having enough assault pods to drop 2 infantry detachments). Deathwind and Support pods were available only if whole regiment was a drop regiment.
-Ultramarines had a +1 to-hit modifiers with off-table support.
-Ultramarines commanders could spot for two indirect fire detachments instead of one, but both detachments had to fire at the same target.

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 Post subject: Oh my god! They killed Horus!
PostPosted: Thu Dec 11, 2003 11:22 am 
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Cheers matey! That is perfect, I will do a revised version of my initial army lists and submit them to both Incoming! and then after the release of Incoming! to the forums and EPICentre.

The main reason tho is it will help my fiction no end!

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 Post subject: Oh my god! They killed Horus!
PostPosted: Thu Dec 11, 2003 5:16 pm 
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Yup ! ?That basically is the way we have been doing it since '90. With a few minor modifications, like, each company can have one Lib., Chap., Tech or Medic as in SM2. ?We use the E40K figs ... ? ?And Razorbacks are available from the Bn Trans Pool.  :;):

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 Post subject: Oh my god! They killed Horus!
PostPosted: Thu Dec 11, 2003 5:33 pm 
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Razorbacks are from after the Heresy aren't they?

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 Post subject: Oh my god! They killed Horus!
PostPosted: Thu Dec 11, 2003 5:44 pm 
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Yes, as are T/Hawks, but we have those options available to the TO&Es. ?We can fight battles during or after the Heresy. ?And T/Hawks are generally Bn Support Dets, for example ... ?Plus we organized our Traitor TO&Es with Companies being SM2 and Bn & Rgt Spt Dets being SM1. ?Copy machines make it easy ... ? :;):

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 Post subject: Oh my god! They killed Horus!
PostPosted: Fri Dec 12, 2003 1:03 am 
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Hi!

Ah, the old AT organization tables. Simply the best!

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 Post subject: Oh my god! They killed Horus!
PostPosted: Wed Jan 21, 2004 1:07 pm 
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Right guys - Revised Ultramarine sample layout :S.

125th Armoured Battalion
Battalion HQ (Consists of 10 Command Staff and a Command Land Raider)

2 Land Raider Companies
? ? 3 Detachments of 3 Land Raiders
? ? 1 Command Land Raider including the captain.

1 Predator Company
? ? 3 Detachments of 3 Predators
? ? 1 Command Predator including the captain.

1 Whirlwind Company
? ? 3 Detachments of 3 Whirlwinds
? ? 1 Command Whirlwind including the captain.


876th Mechanised Battalion
Battalion HQ (Consists of 10 Command Staff and a Command Land Raider)

2 Tactical Companies of:
? ?3 Detachments of 3 Squads of 2 Fire Teams of 5 Marines (4 w/Bolters, 1 with either Specialist/Heavy Weapon) every squad will have a sergeant and a Chimera, every detachment has a Lieutenant.
? ?1 HQ Detachment of 10 Marines, including the captain and a command land raider. May have Chaplin/Librarian/Medic.

1 Battle Company of:
? ?1 Detachments of 3 Squads of 2 Fire Teams of 5 Marines (3 w/Bolters, 2 with Heavy Weapons) every squad will have a sergeant and a Chimera, every detachment a Lieutenant.
? ?3 Detachments of 3 Squads of 2 Fire Teams of 5 Marines (4 w/Bolters, 1 with either Specialist/Heavy Weapon) every squad will have a sergeant and a Chimera, every detachment has a Lieutenant.
? ?3 Detachments of 3 Squads of 2 Fire Teams of 5 Marines (4 w/Bolt Pistols and Close Combat Weapons, 1 with a specialist weapon) every squad will have a sergeant and a Rhino, every detachment has a Lieutenant.
? ?1 HQ Detachment of 10 Marines, including the captain and a command land raider. May have Chaplin/Librarian/Medic.

1 Land Raider Company
? ? 3 Detachments of 3 Land Raiders
? ? 1 Command Land Raider including the captain.

586th Infantry Battalion
Battalion HQ (Consists of 10 Command Staff and a Command Land Raider)

2 Tactical Companies of:
? ?3 Detachments of 3 Squads of 2 Fire Teams of 5 Marines (4 w/Bolters, 1 with either Specialist/Heavy Weapon) every squad will have a sergeant and either a dreadnaught/robot or a vindicator, every detachment has a Lieutenant.
? ?1 HQ Detachment of 10 Marines, including the captain and a command rhino.May have Chaplin/Librarian/Medic.

1 Heavy Company of:
? ?2 Detachments of 3 Squads of 2 Fire Teams of 5 Marines (3 w/Bolters, 2 with Heavy Weapons) every squad will have a sergeant and a either a taratula/thudd gun/mole mortar/rapier, every detachment has a Lieutenant.
? ?1 Detachments of 3 Squads of 2 Fire Teams of 5 Marines (4 w/Bolters, 1 with either Specialist/Heavy Weapon) every squad will have a sergeant and either a dreadnaught/robot or a vindicator, every detachment has a Lieutenant.
? ?1 HQ Detachment of 10 Marines, including the captain and a command rhino. May have Chaplin/Librarian/Medic.

1 Basilisk Company
? ? 3 Detachments of 3 Basilisks
? ? 1 Command Land Raider including the captain.

Note: I replaced the rhinos in the Tactical Mechanised detachments and the Heavy Mechanised detachments with Chimeras as I felt they were a bit ultramariney (the assault detachment kept the Rhinos for the added speed) - also the foot slogging ultramarine tactical detachments include either a dreadnaught, robot or vindicator now, whilst the foot slogging heavy detachments have either a taratula/thudd gun/mole mortar or rapier to give them supporting fire. The infantry battalion was given a Basilisk Company as well to provide supporting fire, I gave the Basilisk Company a Command Land Raider to providing some muscle and supporting fire. This is mainly because I felt the pre heresy Ultramarines where pretty much power armoured IG. What do you guys think? I think the medic should really be allowed on a squad level not a detachment level...

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