Hi all - I've just started collecting my first Epic Armageddon army, and have a question about one of the army special rules.

The list is the Iyanden Craftworld (v3.5). Specifically, I'm not sure how to read the special rule "The Living Few" - text is as follows:



If I have two Spirit Warrior Warhosts, does this mean:

A: I may take up to two of each of the "living" formations (e.g. 1 Guardian Warhost, 2 Aspect troupes, 1 Ranger Troupe and a Windrider Troupe)

or

B: I may take only two "living" formations in total (e.g. 1 Guardian Warhost and 1 Windrider Troupe)

Any help would be greatly appreciated - after my initial buying splurge, I'm holding off on buying any more models until I know whether I can fit them into the army list...

Two of each. Thus you could take two Spirit Hosts, two Guardian Hosts, and two each of Aspect, Ranger, and Windriders. I tend to use Mounted Spirit Hosts and Mounted Aspect Hosts paired off as primary assault forces.

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SG

Ghost's Paint Blog, where everything goes that isn't something else.

Great! Thanks for the quick reply. That opens up a whole lot of troupe combinations that I hadn't been counting on, as I'd been planning around the more conservative reading of the rule...

How do you find the mounted Aspect hosts work in your games? With only four units (+ transports) they seem extremely fragile.

Fragile, but they can puch above their weight. Generally I let the Aspects set up and prep a target, then Retain and Engage with the Spirit Host, with the Aspects in support. To this end I take Aspect Troupes of three Dire Avengers and a Dark Reaper Exarch, for 8 4+ and 2 3+ FF attacks when the Serpents are included. This, added to the 7 4+ and 6 4+MW attacks and high Armor Save of the Spirit Host, is a pretty deadly combination.

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SG

Ghost's Paint Blog, where everything goes that isn't something else.

hmm, I always read that as no more non-dead fms total than dead fms total. So 2 spirit hosts = 2 other hosts (2 guardians or 1 guardian+1 aspect, etc). Certainly would make list creation easier read the other way

After digging around the forums for a bit (which I probably should have done before posting...) I found this thread: viewtopic.php?f=24&t=18076

It has a clarification from Chroma, supporting Spectrar Ghost's answer: I'm not the first person to interpret it incorrectly, but the intent is to allow one of each type of living formation, per Spirit Warrior Warhost. It makes list creation so much easier

I actually prefer this interpretation of it, its alot more themed and i like the resrections it imposes, other wise its pretty much jsut eldar with mounted wraithguard hosts in my eyes.

I agree. I also think that it would help to balance out some of the power of having 4+RA fearless infantry as a core formation. I know of one gaming group that refuses to allow Iyanden armies as people got so peed off with being assaulted by wraithguard fms and them just not going away, even if they lost the assault.

Interestingly, Armyforge is coded the way you describe.

Here's my normal Iyanden list.

I only have one more living unit than Wraiths here. Wraith units are a huge activation drain. What you pay for haiving a 4+RA Fearless core unit is activations. I've done well in, but never won tournaments with this list. Restricting the number of living units essentially means I'm taking more War Walkers or tanks, but it doesn't focus the list any more. What restricts the number of living formations is the fact that Walking Wraithguard will be outmaneuvered, Airborne and Webway 'Guard will be expensive and limited once deployed, and mounted guard are as much as a tank company or Reaver. You don't have room to fit too many Living formations.

The change you describe would not make the list unplayable, but it's a restriction that is imposed in other ways than The Living Few.

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SG

Ghost's Paint Blog, where everything goes that isn't something else.

I agree with the handicaps, although those somewhat apply to regular Eldar too, however, the "no more than an equal no. of each type of support to Spirit Warhosts" version of the Living Few lets me make this, fairly normal list. One warhost in the webway, the other in a vampire, both for knockout strikes. The support fms could be fiddled with a bit, but you get the general idea.

Wraithgate 50
Spirit warhost 350
Spirit warhost 350
Guardians 150
Aspects+autarch 275
Falcons+firestorms 300
Falcons+firestorms 300
Rangers 150
Rangers 150
Storm serpent 250
Night spinners 175
Vampire 200
Nightwings 300

3000pts, 12 activations

To get a similar list with the 1 support per Dead fm, it'd have to be

Wraithgate 50
Spirit warhost 350
Spirit warhost 350
Spirit warhost 350
Guardians 150
Aspects+autarch 275
Falcons+firestorms 300
Rangers 150
Storm serpent 250
Night spinners 175
Vampire 200
Nightwings 300

2850pts, 11 activations and I'd have to find some way of spending the remaining 150pts. I can't cull enough to get some transport for the 3rd Spirit Warhost, but I can't add another activation because of the alternative interpretation of the Living Few rule. Plus I'd be stuck with one of my Spirit Warhosts either in the webway (reducing on board activations) or hoofing it on foot.

So, not a huge difference in activations, but definitely harder to build a list without at least 3 Spirit Warhosts.

Yes, when I created the armyforge files, it never ever occurred to me that the rule would not be intended to be a real limitation.

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Let there be code.

I understand the dilema, and wonder if there is a compromise here by exempting Storm Serpents from the 'per spirithost' exemption? The second list presented by MM indicates a possible approach, but a single Storm Serpent is a considerable liability.

The List that cleaned up at our recent tournament was something like this, and this is jsut from memory,

Wraithguard + Wave serpents
Wraithguard + Wave serpents
Wraithguard
Scouts
Scouts
Scouts
Guardians
Falcons + firestorms
Falcons + firestorms
Night Spinners

just big scout screens and the mobile Wraithguard just went around and mopped up everything in rolling assualts

Iyanden Desperately Defend the Craftworld

Heading off to my first tournament led to too much time reading rules and and making army lists and not enough gaming experience. As a result I selected three lists with increasing numbers of Spirit Hosts in them to reflect my expectation of taking lots of casualties during the day's gaming. It also meant I played with most of the different types of units I actually have painted. I don't have a Wraithgate built (will convert off old metal wave serpents, I think) or Storm Serpents painted (blitz marker was hint at the assembly work to put one together).

The details of the various army lists are here: http://sites.google.com/site/epic40k/home/battlereports/180312tourni/180312armylists


GAME ONE vs Imperial Guard Armoured Formation (Jon's)

Spirit Host with Wraith Seer, 6 Wave Serpents [750]
Spirit Host, 6 Wave Serpents [650]
4 Falcons, 2 Fire Storms [300]
4 Falcons, 2 Fire Storms [300]
3 Fire Prisms, 2 Fire Storms [295]
Farseer, 4 Guardians, 3 Support Weapons [150]
3 Night Spinners [175]
3 Night Spinners [175]
4 Rangers [100]
4 Rangers [100]

So the idea was the plucky guardians and living support formations were desperately waiting for the Wraithguard to arrive and save the day. I only have 8 Falcons painted hence the Fire Prism unit - that would have been much better as a 5 Fire Prism unit if I had the points or another Falcon unit if I had the models. Oh, yes I only have 12 Wave Serpents converted up (cut off the main gun from the old plastic falcons and painted a little more armour like parts around the front) so no dinky mounted Aspect Warrior units for me. I thought that 4 unit Shining Spear, Warp Spider or Swooping Hawk formations would be too vulnerable without Warp Gates or Air Transport (none of that painted either).

The idea was the Falcons would support the mechanised infantry in pairs, the Night Spinners would lay down fire and the Rangers would spot, fill gaps and burn activations. The Guardian/Farseer unit was there to provide a second deployment option for the Avatar which I was determined to use but once again failed to remember to call (in all three games!!?).

How did this game go?

I was suitably scared of Jon's Vultures on overwatch on his baseline with all those rockets. Also since they were backing his Titan I decided to keep away from that. I did chance a darting attack with the Falcons that managed to shoot up some of his mechanised infantry transport on their left flank, which certainly helped to slow them down, and also drew all the rocket fire onto a relatively sacrificial unit (it broke but rallied and help tied up that flank for 3 turns).

This problem of getting my Spirit Hosts' transport shot up was an issue that had exercised my planning. Generally dismounting the wraithguard in front of the wave serpents for shooting and supporting assualts was one solution. I only put the wave serpents in front when I thought that formation would not have to move much more (deep in the enemy half of the table with objectives nearby) or when I was worried about a counter-charge putting them in CC (lift the skimmer Wave Serpents off the ground to force FF). In this game I also went for the ultimate solution to the mobility problem by leaving one of the wraithguard units behind (taking the blast marker but ensuring they got withing shooting range).

You can see that unit pressing the attack on one of the Leman Russ Companies on the IG right flank in Mark's first picture: http://sites.google.com/site/epic40k/home/battlereports/180312tourni


So switching to the main Iyanden attack on the two Leman Russ Companies on that flank. I tried the move-shoot-move double with the Fire Prisms but a lack of dice meant they did little, took a casualty, leaving a second suppressed so in the end only one dice, . . .
However the two mounted Spirit Hosts got moving and started double teaming with the remaining armour on that flank. I deliberately wore my 2005 Trafalgar teeshirt to remind me to "Engage the Enemy More Closely" so doubled wraithguard to within 15 cm wherever possible.

You will notice in the picture the highly agressive use of the Night Spinners. With only a 90 cm indirect fire range and the IG tanks hanging back on their baseline they doubled forward to provide direct fire support(a la German StuG IIIs or Soviet 2S1 Gvozdika). Getting 6 tanks under the single BP3 disrupt template was a surprise I think. It also place another unit out in the line of fire to confuse the enemy response.

Having got all that firepower in place (both to support the assault and to pin the tanks) I used the triple retain assault with the Ranger unit just visible on the middle right. They came in on a clipping attack behind the wraithguard, at the edge of the woods and down to the bottom of the picture. Because the closest Eldar units to the tanks were in front of them they could not counter-charge in the direction of the Rangers to increase the numbers shooting back. Support fire and the combat resolution roll did for what turned out to be the IG BTS.

Breaking tanks with Rangers felt a little odd but they were out-flanked (the supporting tank company out there having been broken previously) and I try to tell myself that the Rangers were just the straw that broke the back of their will to fight on. Or the tank commanders got shot as they put their heads out to see what was going on? One of my plans for the day was to use the Falcons and/or Rangers as the triggering assault formation for exactly this type of attack (once the wraithguard were in place).

Ooops, I think I wrote too much. Should this sort of tactics/comments/stuff go here or elsewhere on the forum?

Thanks to Jon for helping me through the game. His titan did smash up my Guardians in the centre and carve some destruction amongst the armour attacking his right.

Oh yes, this list is only one over the more restricted Spirit Host to Living ratio. The Guardians did little and I'd happily trade them out and live [sic] with the extra risk of losing the Wraith Seer and not being able to call the Avatar.

your opponent could have countercharged his Russes towards the nearest unit - in this case the wraithguard. If he was close enough, he could have based one and dragged that fm into the assault, although that probably wouldn't have been a good idea