_________________
My NetEA Lists:
Fir Iolarion Titan Clan List
Dark Angels List

Always looking to Trade!
Angel's Trade Thread

As I said, they will be going back to 4+. Not sure about the invulnerable 4+ reinforced is pretty tough. Do they really need INV?



I was following the Marine pattern where devastators CC and FF are the inverse of the Assault troops. Basically I don't want the crusader to be better at FF than the colossus to help separate their roles. Having the MM give MW FF gives the Crusader a pretty nice boost and should net around 1 hit with no saves vs. the colossus 2 hits with with saves. Depending on the armor you either end up with the Crusader equal or better than the colossus at fire support against anything with armor. On top of that you have the MW extra attack in CC which makes the Crusader a bit too good compared to the colossus IMO.



I'm using official stats for weapons if they already exist. The plasma cannon has slow firing there so it gets it here. It'll stay that way unless there is an across the board change.



If things change I'm sure the stats can be revisited or points adjusted to compensate.

_________________
-Vaaish

The official published stats for the Minervan Tank Legion Plasma Cannon is AP5+/AT5+ with NO slow firing.
A MUCH better way to go!

_________________
Just call me Steve.

NetEA Rules Chair
NetEA FAQ

Want to play Iron Warriors in Epic Armageddon? Click HERE
Some of my Armies.
My Hobby site.

I agree with zombocom, angel_of_caliban and onyx that Slow Firing is annoying for any but the largest weapons. Man-portable plasma cannons should not have it.

On the Secutors:
- I'd prefer 4+RA, with an added Inv save to represent AdMech oneupmanship over "ordinary" terminator suits.
- I'm not sure I see their role, with Conversion Beamers? They're good at CC, and good at 30-45cm range, but not in between? Couldn't they get plasma weapons instead, for MW FF and medium range shooting?
- Do they really operate as Skitarii upgrades? From what I read, they seem to form they own units.

On the Praetorian:
- 45cm AA? I thought that was only special long-barrelled autocannon that could get that sort of range?
- I don't really see the point in having AA on the Praetorians at all, especially since you still have Flak in the list. It seems a little "rambo" to me, shooting down aircraft with a hand-held rapid-fire gun...

On AA:
- Why not introduce an AA gun in parallel with the Mole Mortar and the Rapier? The Interceptor Quad-Gun from Planetstrike seems a logical choice for two 30cm AA5+ shots. The whole set of support guns could then be simplified in the list as "Support Weapons: 6 Mole Mortars, Rapiers and Interceptor Quad-Guns in any combination". And you could get rid of "Flak", which does seem a little IG specific.

On the Sagitarii:
- I like them in principle, for completeness, but I'm not sure what role they play in the army. I can see that they are supposed to work like Devastators, but those are usually taken for their FF, not for their missile launchers. If the Sagitarii were changed to FF 3+, or get (15cm) EA+1, then they would be useful as an assault support detachment.

what about something a little more defensive for air cover.

I'm thinking like some sort of vehicle mounted shield projected upwards which could provide a reduction in effectiveness of ground attacks by aircraft? That way AA guns could stay on the ordinatus but there'd be limited cover from aircraft in another form.

Something like the formation the shield vehicle is attched to count as being in cover from air attacks as long as the formation isn't broken or the vehicle isn't suppressed? the vehicle could also be lower speed to make it a more difficult choice.

Note all of the above might have been proposed by SpeakertoMachines in his variant list in some form or other, it doesn't feel like it's a new suggestion I've just made up.

_________________
You see a mousetrap, I see free cheese and a f*cking challenge

If no one has issue with this I'll use that version. It will mean that Russ Cataphract will need to be adjusted to match. Again, blame whoever came up with the original stats for the plasma cannon, I just copied them



Perhaps, but I'm not sure that an infantry stand in the middle of a bunch of other stands really needs an extra save VS TK weapons. It might add more durability, but is it really even necessary? I'm not convinced.



With Sagitarii getting plasma, Secutors having conversion beamers makes for a nice difference. They are supposed to have arcane weapons and conversion beamers fit the bill. Even with plasma they wouldn't be getting MW FF. They have a MW CC attack. Their role is to add a bit of added punch at range and some durability to the demi-century. Perhaps giving them "leader" would be useful to show the regard the rest of the mechanicum holds them in.


I think that would be the most likely placement, at least for Epic. They usually just show up in very small numbers and work to protect AdMech assets. Making them a detachment and keeping it small would be terminator sized so 4 stands. That makes more competition for limited support slots and means we need a limit (0-1) to show their rarity which doesn't scale for larger games. Limiting them to an upgrade and only two stands helps show the rarity but still allow for more to be taken in larger games.



All Autocannons have 45cm range. I would gather it's more of the mount that it's attached to that would determine AA capabilities since the stats are otherwise the same. The Hydra gets a bonus because it's twin-linked. It's no more rambo than the AA the HB turret on the Minorus. There is also the example of Servitors shooting at air targets in the Horus Heresy art book AdMech story. Flak mostly requires you to take transport to have any use since it's an upgrade and only gives you one hydra. having the Praetorians with AA gives AA options to people who want to run their demi-centuries without transport since you can't take praetorians and use chimedons.



At the moment, giving them plasma complements the 30cm HB with a bit extra punch against infantry and the ability to hit AV. With the change to 5+/5+ for the plasma, I could see them getting 3+ FF since the only advantage their weapon has over the regular hypaspist HB is that it hits tanks now.



I'd like to stay away from creating new vehicle types from scratch so that rules out making a shield since we don't have any info on that kind of thing being made.

I'll compile the changes in a few minutes. No comment on the robots?

_________________
-Vaaish

All AA weapons have a -15cm range penalty. The Hydra would have 60cm range if it were not AA. See also Ordinatus Heavy Bolters (15cm) and Sabre Weapons Platforms (30cm).

Robots look fine to me.

_________________
SG

Ghost's Paint Blog, where everything goes that isn't something else.

Secutors
Infantry 15cm 4+ 3+ 3+
2x Conversion Beamer
30cm AP6+ /AT6+ OR
30cm-45cm AP3+/AT4+ Ignore cover
Augmentations (Base Contact) Assault Weapon, Macro-Weapon, Extra Attack (+1)
Notes: The Conversion Beamer gets stronger at range and may only use the second profile on targets farther than 30cm. Reinforced Armour, Leader

Sagitarii
Infantry 15cm 5+ 5+ 3+
2x Plasma Cannon 30cm AP5+/AT5+

Praetorian Combat Servitors
Infantry 15cm 4+ 4+ 5+
Autocannon 45cm AP5+ / AT6+ / AA6+
Augmentations (Base Contact) Assault Weapon, Macro-Weapon, Extra Attack (+1)
Fearless, Invulnerable Save.

Leman Russ Executioner AV 20cm 4+ 6+ 5+
Plasma Destroyer 60cm MW4+
Lascannon 45cm AT5
2x Plasma Cannons 30cm AP5+/AT5+
Reinforced Armour

_________________
-Vaaish

I agree that the Praetorian autocannons should have 30cm range for AA; all weapons lose 15cm if they get an AA shot.

_________________
http://www.troublemakergames.co.uk/
Epic: Hive Development Thread

OK, now they are a serious upgrade. A demi-century would shed 3 BMs, then, when rallying. Well worth 100 points each, I think.


Fine statline, though hardly worth 300 points for 4 - Devastators are better armoured, comes with Rhinos, have better range and costs only 250. They are core, too.

Still don't like the AA (the range, and indeed its mere presence).

There's actually 5 stands if you include the Tech-Priest stand, although he's identical to the hypaspist tech priest. Perhaps reducing their cost to 250 then would work since their weapons have lost some punch.



I'm not opposed to dropping it to 30cm, but I'm not seeing this in play. IG infantry autocannons are 45cm without the AA shot and hydras are 45cm with it. Same goes for the minorus, it's listed at 30 cm with an AA shot for the HB same as every HB without AA. Even the CML multilaser is 30cm same as the sentinel one. It seems a bit convoluted to say that all the AA ones get +15cm range just so they can take the -15cm rance and end up with the same range as their non AA counterparts.

_________________
-Vaaish

Have you upped the price for these? I love them but noticed that the minervan executioners don't have sponsons.

_________________
You see a mousetrap, I see free cheese and a f*cking challenge

The Hydra are Long Barreled Autocannon - 72" range (versus 48") in 40k. Are Minorus HBs 30cm? I thought they were 15cm?

Huh. Guess so, according to ATML 3.19.

Well, it's your call, but in general I would reduce the range on AA. Seems to be inconsistantly implemented, though.

_________________
SG

Ghost's Paint Blog, where everything goes that isn't something else.

I've done nothing with them outside of change the stats to the minervan Plasma Cannon stats to keep things consistent. They are still 500 points and will likely stay that way unless they aren't balanced.


It can't hurt to start out at 30cm and increase if necessary. Could chalk the range up to the servitors targeting routines aren't effective at the normal 45cm.

_________________
-Vaaish

Ordinatus HBs are currently labeled "Mars Heavy Bolter" in the description (though not in the summary), probably with the exact purpose of being "special AA bolters"...

I like AA on the Ordinati in general, but I'm a bit hesitant about AA Bolters... I always pictured Bolters as firing relatively slow-moving rocket-propelled shells with an explosive charge; Hardly something you'd send after a fast aircraft... You'd use beam weapons, rapid-fire high-velocity rounds, or guided missiles. Wouldn't an optional Carapace Multilaser fit the bill better? The Titans already use them, so they're should be in ready supply (both for the Forgeworld, and for the enterprising modeler).