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Army Champion responsibilities?
madd0ct0r
 Post subject: Re: Army Champion responsibilities?
PostPosted: Tue Jan 10, 2012 12:37 pm 
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as for the 'fanlist' label, it's semantically not accurate, but we need something to show the list is not really following the beaten track to approved status.

It's currently applied unevenly because it seems to have only come into use the last year or so. There's an old Chem dogs of Savlar list I wrote years ago about somewhere.

It was just a brain itch, spent a few hours typing it up and promptly forgot about until now. I was pretty clear then that I wasn't going to support or follow up on the list but it's in the archives somewhere, with nothing on the document to indicate what it is.

Looking at a theasuarus an 'Embryonic' tag might be appropriate.
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frogbear
 Post subject: Re: Army Champion responsibilities?
PostPosted: Tue Jan 10, 2012 12:43 pm 
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You could always apply the NETEA label as a guide and then all other lists are community submissions that the appropriate ERC member can consider if a request was made.

The current discussion makes me think we have it arse-backwards.

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Jaggedtoothgrin
 Post subject: Re: Army Champion responsibilities?
PostPosted: Tue Jan 10, 2012 12:45 pm 
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well, yes and no. in the end, the only thing a NetEA rating means, is that some people think the list is of a certain quality. its really only a guide for tournament play, and for ease of judging a list.

the primary purpose and value of the NetEA community is not in any way its list-labelling mechanic, but rather, that it is a group of similarlyminded individuals who can share ideas and provide outside opinions on list development.

ulrik: thats kinda what i'm saying
if the army champion is not happy with the list getting to developmental status, the ERC can overrule that (though i do not think they should be able to do the opposite, we should be having a permissive organisation where possible) though i imagine they probably wont.
it should be possible, not likely.

as to embryonic. i still think it should just be listed as experimental, with a note by the developer that says "i'm not planning on working any more on this"
the problem with "fanlist" (aside from the etymological) is when people start using it to describe lists that are not their own. and especially when they attempt to make others also use it
i shall link now, to a tim minchin song

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Ulrik
 Post subject: Re: Army Champion responsibilities?
PostPosted: Tue Jan 10, 2012 1:00 pm 
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Jaggedtoothgrin wrote:
the primary purpose and value of the NetEA community is not in any way its list-labelling mechanic


For me, it is one of the primary values. It shows that these army lists I've printed off the net are actually tested and balanced and a part of something larger, and not just some house rules somebody thought up and published on his website. There are numerous, horrible examples of the latter for systems like 40k or fantasy battle.

When recruiting it's important to be able to show every bit of "officialness" I can find.
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Spectrar Ghost
 Post subject: Re: Army Champion responsibilities?
PostPosted: Tue Jan 10, 2012 1:12 pm 
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Evil and Chaos wrote:
This is a modified version of something I posted in the Army Champion's lounge, before I stepped down as Mechanicus Champion and became a lesser mortal:

Quote:
- Any Champion or Sub Champion who does not manage to take their list from Experimental to Development status in 1 year, or at least show significant effort in that direction, should be stripped of their position.

- Any Champion or Sub Champion who does not manage to take their list from Development to Approved status in 1 year, or at least show significant effort in that direction, should be stripped of their position.

- Any AC who has not managed to play a game of Epic in a period of 6 months really shouldn't be an AC. Likewise, ERC members.

- Every Sub Champion, Army Champion, and ERC member should commit to playing at least 6 games per each half year involving a list within their remit (either as their own army or as the opponent).

For example, zooming out from Sub Champion all the way to ERC Chair:

The Cadian Sub Champion should commit to playing at least 6 games with the Cadian army list during the course of 6 months.
The IG Champion should commit to playing at least 6 games with any NetEA IG list, which could include the Cadians, during the course of 6 months.
The Human ERC member should commit to playing at least 6 games with any NetEA human army list, which could include the Cadians, during the course of 6 months.
The ERC Chair should commit to playing at least 6 games with any NetEA army list, which could include the Cadians, during the course of 6 months.


Why are you always picking on me? Do you know how hard it is to get a game of Epic in around these parts these days? ;) :)

These are good goals, but from the point of view of practicality, can be hard to acheive at the best of times. I get a game in per week. Unfortunately it's a game more or less dictated by what the others in my group feel like at the time. Our group lost about half it's players early last year, so for the past several months that's meant if I want to get any game in at all, I'll be playing Necromunda or Blood Bowl. The Cadians are never far from my mind, nonetheless.

So even when you have a Sub AC or AC who is dedicated to bringing a list to completion, it can be difficult to acheive. I wouldn't want to be Sub-AC of multiple lists under those guidelines either - Froggy would be committed to something like thirty-six games a year to keep his lists under his remit.

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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Re: Army Champion responsibilities?
PostPosted: Tue Jan 10, 2012 1:18 pm 
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Quote:
I get a game in per week. Unfortunately it's a game more or less dictated by what the others in my group feel like at the time.

6 games of Epic in 6 months is not a massive burden.

It's two tournament days (3 games a day).
It's using 25% of your weekly gaming evenings to play Epic.

Quote:
Froggy would be committed to something like thirty-six games a year to keep his lists under his remit.

Then Froggy has quite simply over-committed himself on lists and needs to give some away to others who can commit to testing them an average of once per month until they reach approved status.


I'm not proposing any kind of standard that I've not held myself to; The reason I stepped down as Mechanicus AC is because I cannot say with confidence that I will have time to test the Skitarii or Knightworld Lists at least once per month over the next six months... so I've reduced my commitments down to a level of testing I believe I can meet.


I find it to be selfish in the extreme to "squat" list Championships when you have no likelyhood of undertaking any testing on those Championships for half a year or more...

...and that still stands, even if it is not your fault that you no longer have a local gaming scene that is interested in Epic. I'm sorry, but you don't have the qualifications to be a NetEA Epic army list developer if you can't actually play NetEA Epic.

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Last edited by Evil and Chaos on Tue Jan 10, 2012 1:20 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Ulrik
 Post subject: Re: Army Champion responsibilities?
PostPosted: Tue Jan 10, 2012 1:20 pm 
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Spectrar Ghost wrote:
So even when you have a Sub AC or AC who is dedicated to bringing a list to completion, it can be difficult to acheive. I wouldn't want to be Sub-AC of multiple lists under those guidelines either - Froggy would be committed to something like thirty-six games a year to keep his lists under his remit.


Stripping them of the position automatically is unneccesary, but if an AC fails to meet the targets the position should be noted as "open", in that if somebody else wants to put in the work they should be allowed to.

It won't happen that often. Frogbear, you just said that you're AC of all those lists mostly because they would otherwise be orphaned?
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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Re: Army Champion responsibilities?
PostPosted: Tue Jan 10, 2012 1:21 pm 
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Quote:
Stripping them of the position automatically is unneccesary, but if an AC fails to meet the targets the position should be noted as "open", in that if somebody else wants to put in the work they should be allowed to.

Heartily agreed.

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Spectrar Ghost
 Post subject: Re: Army Champion responsibilities?
PostPosted: Tue Jan 10, 2012 1:46 pm 
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How many opponents to you play on a regular basis? My group consists of myself and three others, one of whom has not bought into Epic yet. I get one tournament a year in - Adepticon. That's in Chicago, not a small town. Practical considerations mean that if there's a general burnout on Epic, I can't get a game in no matter what. It's not about "wanting" to put the work in for me - if it were the list would be done.

In a lot of ways this goes back to the point of playtesing in multiple metas and playgroups. I could play Cadians twice a week for a year and it would tell me less than getting three games in and gathering feed back at the same level from two or three other groups. Playtesting needs breadth and depth, but I personally feel that breadth is the more important factor.

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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Re: Army Champion responsibilities?
PostPosted: Tue Jan 10, 2012 1:54 pm 
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Quote:
How many opponents to you play on a regular basis?

A 2-4 games a month generally, more if it's a tournament month (I attend 3-4 tournaments a year, and those will have 3-6 games).

Quote:
I could play Cadians twice a week for a year and it would tell me less than getting three games in and gathering feed back at the same level from two or three other groups. Playtesting needs breadth and depth, but I personally feel that breadth is the more important factor.

If there's no lower limit of commitment, soon enough you end up with one of the following:

- AC stops playing Epic, but then hangs on to his position for several years, despite not playing Epic actively for years (this has happened with Tau, 'nids, AMTL, and Chaos), to the great harm of the community.

- AC over-commits himself and then gets no development work done on most of his lists (I need not name names, but it's happened multiple times) and gets only a fraction of his lists to Approved status.

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BlackLegion
 Post subject: Re: Army Champion responsibilities?
PostPosted: Tue Jan 10, 2012 1:58 pm 
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Personally i rely on forum user feedback aout my championed lists.
I have ONE Epic event per year where i can play ca. 5 games in two days. There i usually play Salamanders.
I haven't a single game with the Red Corsairs yet as there is only one Epic player in my city and we managed only to play two introductory games (with Space Marine son both sides) and one undersized game (SM vs Orks) in 4 years as he don`t even has a 2000pts army.

Should i step down?
I say no, becaus i can still manage my championed army lists a slong as people give me feedback and ideas. If no one besides me is interested in a particular list it plunges into oblivion.
As said above there is a certain amount of darwinism on this board and this is good.

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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Re: Army Champion responsibilities?
PostPosted: Tue Jan 10, 2012 2:08 pm 
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Quote:
Should i step down?

There is no doubt you are a great boon to the community.

But.

You should certainly seriously consider whether you are best placed to be in charge of playtesting an army list for NetEA Epic if you don't or can't play NetEA Epic on at least a semi-regular basis.

If you have been unable to playtest the Red Corsairs list once in its 4(?) years of existence, I honestly think perhaps you should hand over the list to someone who can.

VASSAL and Zombocom's TABLETOP both provide means to playtest lists if you don't have players locally.

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BlackLegion
 Post subject: Re: Army Champion responsibilities?
PostPosted: Tue Jan 10, 2012 2:15 pm 
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Well see it so:
I do all the editing, formating, typo correcting, roposing new ideas.
What an (sub-)AC should do in (according to you) addition to this is playing the army regularly. To what? To use actual gaming experience to enhance the list.
That i can do without playing the army because i can do the above with support of other gamers who are intetested in the list and actually have time and people to play a game with.

Provided they don`t lie to me :D

As for Vassal and Zombo's Tabletop: Time zones are a big hindrance.

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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Re: Army Champion responsibilities?
PostPosted: Tue Jan 10, 2012 2:17 pm 
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Quote:
As for Vassal and Zombo's Tabletop: Time zones are a big hindrance.

Europe is hardly a player-scarce time region.

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kyussinchains
 Post subject: Re: Army Champion responsibilities?
PostPosted: Tue Jan 10, 2012 2:26 pm 
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Evil and Chaos wrote:
Europe is hardly a player-scarce time region.


a valid point, although you might see things differently when your baby arrives..... :P

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