Other things marking out Ulthwe as unique are a higher reliance on Webway Gate technology, and "Storm Guardians" (guardians with CCW & Pistol).

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Maybe, but since 2e the hallmark of Ulthwé has been the Black Guardians.

Eh, if they could only get a special rule that they get the penalty on retain even with farsight, but that would be fiddly...

Yup that is fiddly.

It's also worth noting that right now, there's zero difference between Guardians and Black Guardians in 40k. The only difference is how you paint them, and it's been that way for the last 5-6 years.

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Well, I got nothing better than 3+FF for Ulthwé.

So, will NetEA copy the eUK Black Guardian formation? Or will they stay at 200 pts with no wraith options?

The question at hand is what their status in the compendium should be approved or developement. If they are approved they will stay as is, if developement we have a year to come up with a solution or not.

I think it would be constructive to remain focused on the NetEA Ulthwe list, as the EUK list has some fairly significant differences, formation wide Leader for 25pts being the main one.

the extra Farseer is useful in the sense that it means that you're less likely to have a guardian formation at some point in the game without one and I can sort of see the benefit of having a larger Avatar delivery envelope, but that's about it. I don't use Commander (better to shoot then support, given how important activations are) and I think I have only ever used a Farseer in CC twice in 20+ Ulthwe games, and one of those was a suicide attack on a Warhound (it destroyed it, surprisingly enough). If you're getting Farseers into CC, then there's a big chance that Guardians will be drawn into CC, which both nullifies their major strength (FF4) and means autokills if you take any hits in return, usually followed by a wiped out Guardian fm on resolution. If you've managed to get the Farseer into CC without any Guardians in CC, then the first hit will go on the Farseer, which is far too valuable a unit to risk just to use his MW attack. So, for me, I'm not paying the extra 50pts for the Farseer, I'm paying it for the init1+. Even then, I've only taken Black Guardians a few times as the need to mechanise them and their 400pt formation cost means that they haven't fitted in well with my largely Webway assault strategy. I'm going to be playing more with mech guardians so I'll have to try it out.

Also, doing a triple retain with 3 400pt formations should get you some results, it's over a 1/3 of your army after all and should leave you horribly vulnerable to counter attack. You also will have to leave 1200pts worth of fms within 50cm of 3 targets, relying on 5+RA (which I've failed plenty of times) to protect your soft troops, and hope that your opponent will leave them be and not bother laying any BMs. It's an awful lot of eggs to put in one basket and really relies on your opponent playing to your strategy. Given that I think that the triple autoretain is the least of their worries.

This is my standard list:
Wraithgate 50
Black Guardians+SC 300
Guardians+WG+s/wpns 350
Guardians+WG 300
Guardians 150
Rangers 5 125
Nightspinners 175
Aspects(Ulthwe)+Ex Warpspiders 200
Falcons+2xFS 6 300
Falcons+2xFS 6 300
Engines of Vaul - Storm Serpent 1 250
Vampire 200
Nightwings 300
Total 3000 12 activations

I can't take more support formations as I don't have the points and can't drop that token useless Guardian fm as I then wouldn't have the support slots. I could always drop a Falcon from each fm to get a 4 strong Ranger fm, although that usually means that my ground AA degrades even more rapidly than usual.

Now, for the Triple Retain of Doom list, I'd take something like:

List two - Ulthwe
Black guardians+WS 400
Black guardians+WS 400
Black guardians+WS 400
Guardians+SC 250
Jetbikes/Vypers 200
Jetbikes/Vypers 200
Rangers 5 125
Nightspinners 175
Falcons+2xFS 6 300
Falcons+2xFS 5 250
Nightwings 300
Total 3000 11 activations

No way I'm going with out an SC and little chance that I'd throw him up front in an assault, so that means another Guardian fm (blitz guard most likely). The rest looks ok to me, although it will be considerably harder to deliver those Guardians into an assault in a pristine condition than with the webway assault strategy as it's a rare game when my most important on board eldar fms enter turn 2 without at least one BM. Still, I'd have to try it out to really see how "overpowered" it is.

And Steve, saying "ignore the BM issue" to an Eldar player is pretty funny. BMs are everything to an Eldar player and have put a spanner in the works of most of my games. BMs absolutely have to be taken into account in discussing relative strengths or weaknesses of a NetEA Eldar list.

What's pretty funny is saying that init 1 is the least of the issues. All the stuff about risking 1200pts, leaving yourself vulnerable to counterattack, BMS is completely irrelevant. For biel tan its a very effective tactic and often used and there is no reason, be it units or activation count, why ulthwe can't do the same with it. They have the advantage in getting in position and then doing it with SR5.
Get rid of init 1 and the problem is solved

Regarding their elite status or superiority to normal guardians - that would still be represented by SR5

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SR5, extra farseers, Seer Council - they all represent Ulthwés increased focus on seers. There will be no elite guardians. Perhaps it is appropriate, as they have Black Guardians because they lack Aspect Warriors, not because their Guardians are so good.

The main argument against losing init1+ is that it can't be that game breaking - BT armies have a 92% chance of pulling off a 1+, 2+, 2+ chain with an SC reroll. The gamebreaking part can't be the removal of the 8% failure chance, but rather triple activation in itself.

I think the real difference is that Ulthwé can accept a blast marker or two and still pull off a triple retain with good odds? But then we're not talking about automatic retains anymore. I dunno, I've never seen them as overpowered, rather as underpowered compared to BT, but I'm probably wrong. I just can't see how 1+ init is the big bad. Removing the extra farseer unit might work for nerfing it too.

you misread my post. I said that if an opponent allowed 3 400pt FF formations with init1+ to be within assault distance of 3 separate targets without laying even a single BM on them, then the init1+ is the least of their worries as they have roundly failed strategically to counter the greatest threat to their army.

if you wish to have a civil discussion about a list that no-one has made a peep about on these forums for the 2yrs+ I've been playing them intensively, it might be worth not dismissing opposing views as irrelevant.

BT can do the 3 retain tactic well. I've done it, I've seen it done. With SR4, and no auto-triple-retain.
Uithwe therefore should have no problems doing it as they can manage just as many activations, which is the factor on whether you have to move the units tabbed for triple retain into danger early enough that your opponent can react. Though really they don't need to be in danger as can stay loaded in their WS 45cm away. They then have SR5, so will be more likely to go first, and auto-triple retain.

BMs/points/counters aren't valid in the U discussion as the points are no different to what affects the Biel-tan and the triple retain is effectively used by them. The combo of SR5+Init 1 makes it overpowered for Ulthwe.

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I just don't see it. BT can do the triple retain, and have pretty high odds of pulling it off too. Even if Ulthwé has even higher odds, the only difference is that BT might lose one game in a tournament purely to dice while Ulthwé does not.

That's bad design, IMO - the success or not of the list is down to three dice rolls and not tactics. Ulthwé just highlights it.

If BT had low enough odds to make it a bad play, then Ulthwé might be overpowered. Is that really the case? That BT can't do triple activations, while Ulthwé can? The bugaboo here is triple retain, not 1+ guardians.

Triple retain is fine, when combined with init 1, SR5 and a list which plays to its strenghts by following that tactic it isn't

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How can it be? If it's down purely to luck wether the BT list wins 3 or 4, while Ulthwé list wins 4? That's an overreliance on single dice rolls, which means the games are decided by luck, rather than skill.

If anything, Ulthwé highlights that triple retain is broken. Good players avoid building lists that avoid relying on it in tournaments, because over several games it will let you down once, but in a single game it is still overpowered.

Nearly every list build relies, at least to an extent, on the dice rolls of a vital engagement. Most SM builds, for example, rely on the terminator air assault working

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