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Death Guard v2.x

 Post subject: Re: Death Guard v2.x
PostPosted: Tue Nov 29, 2011 12:54 pm 
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Gotta agree with E&C, sacred numbers are a really minor thing, and you shouldn't put the list out to represent them. As previously mentioned, 35 isn't their sacred number, so it makes little sense to fix the formation as 7 units.

Sacred numbers are a fluff thing, to be represented by choice. They shouldn't be forced on players.

Putting x units on a base seems to best way to represent it to me.

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 Post subject: Re: Death Guard v2.x
PostPosted: Tue Nov 29, 2011 1:14 pm 
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I will wait half a year until the rumoured Codex: Legions is out :)

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 Post subject: Re: Death Guard v2.x
PostPosted: Tue Nov 29, 2011 5:21 pm 
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I am not currently playing/painting Epic Chaos figures- have too many other painting projects I want to finish first. And I am not currently playing Chaos in W40k because I hate the current CSM Codes- cant wait for Codex Chaos Legions.

However I do intend to play Chaos in future and I do like the background fluff details like sacred numbers. I try and apply by the sacred numbers for my WFB WoC army. So even if I accept that picking units according to sacred numbers should not be compulsory, I would insist on it being an option.

As to doing sacred numbers by numbers of figures on a stand that would doable for Slaanesh, and at a push Nurgle. But impossible for Khorne and Tzeentch as EA max 7 infantry figures to a base.

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 Post subject: Re: Death Guard v2.x
PostPosted: Tue Nov 29, 2011 7:17 pm 
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As to doing sacred numbers by numbers of figures on a stand that would doable for Slaanesh, and at a push Nurgle. But impossible for Khorne and Tzeentch as EA max 7 infantry figures to a base.

Do those across two units.

So for 9, do bases with 4 and bases with 5, and make them all go around together.

It should very much be a fluffy modelling thing, not something you try and crowbar into the lists regardless of balance implications. Especially as you're counting half sized squads... groups of 35 Marines (7 units) will mean absolutely nothing to papa nurgle.

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 Post subject: Re: Death Guard v2.x
PostPosted: Tue Nov 29, 2011 8:08 pm 
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Evil and Chaos wrote:
Quote:
As to doing sacred numbers by numbers of figures on a stand that would doable for Slaanesh, and at a push Nurgle. But impossible for Khorne and Tzeentch as EA max 7 infantry figures to a base.

Do those across two units.

So for 9, do bases with 4 and bases with 5, and make them all go around together.

It should very much be a fluffy modelling thing, not something you try and crowbar into the lists regardless of balance implications. Especially as you're counting half sized squads... groups of 35 Marines (7 units) will mean absolutely nothing to papa nurgle.

Was nt talking about using crowbar- hence my comment about wanting it as an OPTION. Enough to satisfy us old grognards but not restricting anyone else.

Cheers

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 Post subject: Re: Death Guard v2.x
PostPosted: Tue Nov 29, 2011 8:10 pm 
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I still don't get why papa nurgle would be pleased to see Death Guard always going about in groups of 35 men (three and a half squads). There's nothing to do with his favourite number involved there.

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 Post subject: Re: Death Guard v2.x
PostPosted: Tue Nov 29, 2011 9:14 pm 
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I understand both sides of the discussion.

The main issue with the size in formations (well the only really) is larg-ish formations of fearless troops. A formation of 4 is not viable and anything above 6 is too much and also too expensive. So it is trying to find that happy medium wherin Hena went with the split of death guard vs plague marine.

It's just something that needs to be worked on more to find the right balance. It might already be there, but i think it does need further review to be sure against other examples/options.

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 Post subject: Re: Death Guard v2.x
PostPosted: Wed Jan 04, 2012 7:45 am 
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Cheers Hena. I will send you a pm later tonight after i get some stuff out of the way.

Also any of the ideas that you were working on (such as above) i am happy to look at as well.

:)

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 Post subject: Re: Death Guard v2.x
PostPosted: Wed Feb 08, 2012 4:41 am 
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For what its worth here is some initial feedback(in no particular order) from an old epic death guard player but ea noob:

Nice emphasis on elite infantry.
Its suprising to me that Death Guard Csm are better in Cc than Black Legion Csm.
The text in the PDF for contagion towers is the same as the plague tower text.
The text on blight drones has emphasis on drones that nest in titans. There aren't units that do this, but I might be missing something here.
I like the aa defilers over oblits.
Still getting my head around the finer aspects of assaults, but I rarely see dreadnoughts (in any lists, not just death guard). Does this imply that they are over costed?
I don't think there is a need for sacred numbers at epic scale. My opinion might change when the new 40k legion codex arrives.
Rhinos are a part of modern warfare. Mortarion might have taught his guys to fight on foot with bolters, but he would have also taught them that if they need rhinos they should use them. I like the current rhino upgrades as opposed to footslogging.
Not sure about those titans. They are well themed, but I am a fan of the bad old days of picking and choosing Titan weapons, but understand the need for balance in lists.

That's it for now. Apart from wanting Mortarion back of course. ;)
Cheers
Mat

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 Post subject: Re: Death Guard v2.x
PostPosted: Wed Feb 08, 2012 9:21 am 
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Matty_C wrote:
For what its worth here is some initial feedback(in no particular order) from an old epic death guard player but ea noob:

Welcome :)

Quote:
Nice emphasis on elite infantry. Its suprising to me that Death Guard Csm are better in Cc than Black Legion Csm.

Interesting pick up. With the 3+ armour already in there, you may have a good point for a review of this in line with all the other stats. If it does eventuate that they go back to a 4+ CC, then that would also welcome a potential price drop in units. All whiteboard stuff at this stage.

Quote:
The text in the PDF for contagion towers is the same as the plague tower text.

The Compendium should catch that. I will look this weekend

Quote:
The text on blight drones has emphasis on drones that nest in titans. There aren't units that do this, but I might be missing something here.

Leave it with me for this weekend coming

Quote:
I like the aa defilers over oblits.

I also like any idea that gets rid of Obliterators in cult lists

Quote:
Still getting my head around the finer aspects of assaults, but I rarely see dreadnoughts (in any lists, not just death guard). Does this imply that they are over costed?

This applies to upgrades in general. Upgrades other than a character are usually looked over in place of using the points to gain another activation. Unless you can insert those dreads into combat immediately (Marine Thunderhawk), or you intend on placing a beefy unit on an objective (and thereby cutting points off the rest of the army and reducing effectiveness), the points are better spent elsewhere. Even if they were 2 for 75 points (as an example), I daresay they would still be a rarity. It is purely due to the activation system of Epic:A.

Quote:
I don't think there is a need for sacred numbers at epic scale. My opinion might change when the new 40k legion codex arrives.

Why would your opinion change based on a 40K book? If they mention it in that you would buy into the whole sacred numbers? I would rather you select your basis on what you would like to see rather than forever waiting for the next update. Much like the game Warmaster (as an example), it would be good to gain a list that remains viable and fixed no matter what changes happen. The biggest issue that faces Epic:A are forever changing and unstable lists. I am really going to push to get a final list this year if I can manage that. I would rather it not change everytime GW wants to make even more money.

Quote:
Rhinos are a part of modern warfare. Mortarion might have taught his guys to fight on foot with bolters, but he would have also taught them that if they need rhinos they should use them. I like the current rhino upgrades as opposed to footslogging.

Yep. Rhinos are good and I agree. I recently made them more available to the World Eaters and I have the same thoughts for this list if they are lacking.

Quote:
Not sure about those titans. They are well themed, but I am a fan of the bad old days of picking and choosing Titan weapons, but understand the need for balance in lists.

It is really about scale and balance. I would rather the swap and change for the dedicated Titan lists, or IMHO, you really should be looking at a game like Battletech if you enjoy massed battles with Big Robots. No use making Epic something that it is not - but that is another discussion......


Quote:
That's it for now. Apart from wanting Mortarion back of course. ;)

I really appreciate your feedback and what you have done is contributed to possible changes this year so well done.

As for Mortarion, I can always find the stats for him again (they are somewhere in my Epic folder) and make them available for people that wish to play with him in their own games. :)

Cheers....

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 Post subject: Re: Death Guard v2.x
PostPosted: Wed Feb 08, 2012 8:45 pm 
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frogbear wrote:
It is purely due to the activation system of Epic:A.

Ok. Points are better spent on more activations. Is "replace unit with dreadnought" ever done in any of the lists?

frogbear wrote:
Why would your opinion change based on a 40K book? If they mention it in that you would buy into the whole sacred numbers?

In all likelihood it wouldn't. It would take a process that is so clever, unique and characterful that it simply couldn't be ignored. I suspect we won't see that.

frogbear wrote:
I am really going to push to get a final list this year if I can manage that.

Awesome!

frogbear wrote:
I really appreciate your feedback and what you have done is contributed to possible changes this year so well done.

Happy to be of assistance. And back on the horse so to speak. :)

frogbear wrote:
As for Mortarion...

Don't go to any trouble on my behalf mate. I can easily come up with my own. Besides, leaving the model at home while his armies go off and do all of the fighting matches the background! ;)

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 Post subject: Re: Death Guard v2.x
PostPosted: Thu Mar 22, 2012 4:52 am 
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With things settled down with the armies book and seeing we are 3 months into the year, I may start to open some discussions and review this list this weekend.

I will go over the previous pages and collate info and then go from there.

Happy for people to contribute ideas. It would be good to get different perspectives and have the community help develop this list.

With Thousand Sons moving along nicely and the LatD discussions continuing, it would be good to start moving this list along as well.

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 Post subject: Re: Death Guard v2.x
PostPosted: Sat May 26, 2012 10:27 am 
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This is not dead, just still waiting for the Compendium.

Marine changes and the most recent chaos discussions will flow through to this list.

Also looking to;
- drop the Death Guard CC to 4+
- removing the rhino (transport) upgrade and make it a part of the standard unit buy
- reviewing the war engines in the list to possibly move them to 1/3 section in line with BL changes

Not really wanting to make changes till we have the Compendium set for a 1 year review from a specific date.

If it does not happen in the next few months however, I will go by my own timeframes for yearly reviews.

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 Post subject: Re: Death Guard v2.x
PostPosted: Sat May 26, 2012 10:31 am 
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I think you can go ahead and move forward with the list, the compendium is done (the last few months have been looking for typos) so it won't be changing in 2012. If we want to have the DG moving onward in development for the 2013 Compendium then we should be looking at changes sooner rather than later

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