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Aircraft as Transport rule?

 Post subject: Re: Aircraft as Transport rule?
PostPosted: Mon Nov 28, 2011 4:33 pm 
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Then put it in lists that need it.


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 Post subject: Re: Aircraft as Transport rule?
PostPosted: Mon Nov 28, 2011 4:33 pm 
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Ulrik wrote:
Have anybody tried similar tricks to what Neal is describing with Krieg Gorgons? Or are the Gorgons too slow to do it properly?

All you'd be doing is effectively turning two expensive formations into one slower formation that has lots of no-save infantry in the open.

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 Post subject: Re: Aircraft as Transport rule?
PostPosted: Mon Nov 28, 2011 5:41 pm 
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zombocom wrote:
Neal: The war engine transport rules already allow that for Independent War Engine Transports, though in army lists they are characterised more by the exceptions than the rule.

Yes. I am of the opinion that linking up should not be allowed for WE transports, either, for the same reasons. As it stands, it's really only tactically expedient for WE Transports to remain effectively attached (assault/consolidate) or to split off and never re-combine, so there is not a problem. However, It's only a fairly elaborate set of army list construction limits, army list special rules, and WE transport unit stats that prevent a lot of weirdness. I can think of several situations where that would not be the case.

The obvious one is transport WEs in mixed formations, which allows quite a bit of flexibility in combining formations on the fly, a la Commander. It was removed after the Ork playtests via a special rule - no attached WE transports are allowed to transport units from another formation.

As far as unit stats, if there were fast WE transports, there would be some substantially better tactical options for battered assault formations. Instead of using a battered formation to suicide-screen or hide and hope they can objective-grab, have them March over and board a WE transport, so they could have a combined assault in the following turn. If Eldar every had a WE ground transport instead of portals, their fire-then-move option would be extremely useful for combining formations and their full-length consolidation move would be extremely useful for splitting off afterwards.

What if you had an Ork list that had Fortress Mobz and a Snappa formation? For ~550 points, you could have 2 Snappa Mobz mounted inside one Fortress formation (1 snappa per fort). That's fast, strong assault, decent firepower and FF (pretty darn good for Orks) and the ability to split off into 2 or 3 separate activations as needed. Further, the Fortress Mob could swoop around the battlefield to combine with other formations just like any fast WE transport, as noted above. It's only restrictions on list construction that stop that.

If you were to add non-WE, independent transport, the number of problems to look out for would be increased in proportion.

To use a common SM Land Raider transport request as an example, 2 Devastator stands which are out of position could march 45cm over and load onto 2 LRs. The next turn the combined formation double moves 50cm, shoots, and support an assault that was potentially 100cm from the Dev's starting point. Put them on/near an objective and the enemy will have to clear 2 formations (and if it were a FF assault instead of a double move, they could even consolidate so they were not intermingled).

Maybe that's okay to you or maybe not, but it's definitely a substantial increase to tactical options that would have to be considered.

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Is it that unrealistic that a formation that had dropped in would call for a valkyrie formation to come and pick them up?

Yes, absolutely. During the course of a ~1 hour Epic battle, calling for transport and having it arrive in good order is completely unrealistic.

If you want a real world example, look at the Blackhawk Down story. Combat veteran US Army Rangers tried to link up with multiple transport options, which were also crewed by experienced veterans who had at least some nominal time to do mission planning. Over the course of 24 hours they were unable to do so.

Proposing to do that within 15 minutes when both groups are under threat, as a routine matter? No way.


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 Post subject: Re: Aircraft as Transport rule?
PostPosted: Mon Nov 28, 2011 5:58 pm 
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Evil and Chaos wrote:
Ulrik wrote:
Have anybody tried similar tricks to what Neal is describing with Krieg Gorgons? Or are the Gorgons too slow to do it properly?

All you'd be doing is effectively turning two expensive formations into one slower formation that has lots of no-save infantry in the open.

I thought the Krieg Gorgons had the same "attached transport" restriction Ork Battleforts have? They should.

In any case, it's not just full-strength formations at issue. Krieg infantry formation in Gorgons has taken damage but retains Gorgons. Another all-infantry formation with limited options runs over and mounts up in the empty spots in the Gorgon. Next turn, combined formation. That's probably not so great at the beginning of the game, but in Turn 4 a single formation of 1 Gorgon and 7-8 infantry is a pretty good assault (or double/shoot/support), while separate formations of Gorgon+2-3 infantry and 5-6 infantry is not.


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 Post subject: Re: Aircraft as Transport rule?
PostPosted: Mon Nov 28, 2011 6:01 pm 
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Quote:
I thought the Krieg Gorgons had the same "attached transport" restriction Ork Battleforts have? They should.

I agree they should, but IIRC it got left out as an oversight, I'm not 100% certain though.

It's not going to be a common occurance though, as Krieg infantry formations are so huge and unweildy, and unlike Ork WE transports they don't actually move all that fast, it's rarely going to be an available option.

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 Post subject: Re: Aircraft as Transport rule?
PostPosted: Mon Nov 28, 2011 9:56 pm 
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Mephiston wrote:
Then put it in lists that need it.


It should be a standard special rule, so it's consistent across lists.

Alternatively make it a general rule for aircraft only.


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 Post subject: Re: Aircraft as Transport rule?
PostPosted: Tue Nov 29, 2011 12:11 am 
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I think the second is the best choice. WE Aircraft already have the ability, but the "Airlift" ability for non-WE aircraft that allows the same thing is the easiest solution.

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 Post subject: Re: Aircraft as Transport rule?
PostPosted: Wed Dec 14, 2011 11:21 am 
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I could see an aircraft formation duplicating the transport abilities of a war engine transport aircraft; performing a ground attack mission to either drop off an already loaded formation or pick up a separate formation, though they'd need FF and CC values added.

In a hypothetical situation, I could see for instance a formation of 4 stormravens statted up as fighterbombers duplicating the transport abilities of a thunderhawk.

I don't think allowing non aircraft formations the ability to transport other formations is a wise idea though, and would require a massive rebalance of all lists if so.


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