@zombocom: So in army building you HAVE to take a Synapse in any Swarm which doesn`t consist entirely of units without Brood?
Looking up Leviathan V2.1 i see that the four true Independent Swarms don`t have any option for Synapses.

Only flaw: Harridans and Hierophants are never described as being Synapse Creatures in the fluff and rules.

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Exactly, if there are Brood units, they need Synapse.

It's true, they're never actually described in those terms, but they are described as leading units that would otherwise need synapse, and as having their own internal minor synapse links. Given the concept of the Trygon Prime It's not a stretch to suggest other WEs could have Prime versions.

The Hierophant could be independent since it's not leading broods around, but the Harridan and Trygon should have Synapse options.

It's just so much more elegant that having some Raveners/Gargoyles that need synapse and some that are magically independent.

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Epic: Hive Development Thread

Yes it`s more elegant.
But my system mentioned earlier works too and doesn`t invent a Harridan Prime.
Synapse present = best Initiative (say 1+) plus Spawning
Equal or less than half units/startingDC are Broods = mediocre Initiative (say 2+)
More then half units/startingDC are Broods = bad Initiative (say 3+)

If a -2 to rally when broken is warranted we could add this. Most possibly to swarms with Synapses.

This way a Swarm with 1 Winged Hive Tyrant with 4 Gargoyles would have Initiative 1+. If the Winged Hive Tyrant dies the Swarm would have Initiative 3+.
A Swarm with 1 Harridan (DC4) with 4 Gargoyles would have Initiative 2+. If the Harridan dies the Swarm would have Initiative 3+.
A Swarm with 2 Harridan (2 x DC4) and 8 Gargoyles would have Initiative 2+. If one Harridan dies the Swarm would have Initiative 3+. Then if 4 Gargoyles also die the Swarm would have Initiative 2+ again.

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Why should 8 Gargoyles be init 2+ and 4 Gargoyles be init 3+? That's pretty confusing and very likely to cause ingame mistakes.

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Epic: Hive Development Thread

Yah, that is neither simple or easy to use. Just go with the synapse/no synapse check and accept things like harridans are synapse nodes for the gargoyles/whatevers they're leading around.

It's also pretty unlikely to happen in game, but will be dependent on the army list. If a list has a Synapse Swarm which is a core of Gargoyles and an Independent Swarm that's the same I can see the above happening. But if Gargoyles are merely upgrades I doubt you'll see a Synapse Swarm reduced to only them. Synapse creatures are usually the last to die in the swarm, given the Fearless ability and the propensity for assaults with 'nids.

Anyway, save it for the special rule debates.

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I saw it happen with Raveners several times under 9.2.1

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Epic: Hive Development Thread

Like I said, it'll depend on the army list. In 9.2.1 you could build a Synapse Swarm of all Raveners, and given the LV status of the Warriors it usually was a good idea to take some to help them out. The Subterranean (Independent) Swarm was also all Raveners. That's pretty much the exact situation I described above.

If we remove Raveners as a core option for Synapse Swarms (which has some support given the Ravener thread discussion) I don't think the problem will pop up that often.

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I don't really care how often it comes up; the fact that it can come up is a flaw in the rules. There are other options that avoid it.

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Epic: Hive Development Thread

Because the 8 Garygolyes still have a Harridan (DC4) around where the 4 Gargoyles are alone.

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Once more, into the stat-sphincter:

Trygon



The armor and CC were changed to make them the next step up from a Carnifex when assuming 2DC. The shooting ability I removed as it doesn't exist in the current fluff, the FF remained at 5+ though.

Trygon Prime

We'll leave this as a character upgrade.

Mawloc



The the infiltrator/first strike abilities are there to abstract out the hit and run, and terror from the deep rules. It also differentiates them enough from the Trygon to make a separate stat-line possible.

Tyranofex



Let me know if that's right Zombo.

Harridan



The CC was reduced given how it compares to a Trygon in 40k and SM/TL. Given people's thoughts on the Bio-cannon I went back and took a look at the SM/TL stats one more time and decided to stick with the 9.2.1 stats for it (2x AP4+/AT5+). However, the Harridan's bio-cannons weren't as good as the Exocrine's (I guess because they're smaller?) but because there are two of them I figure we can just twin them and keep them at 2x AP4+/AT5+ anyway.

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Why are you downgrading the DC of the Harridan from 4 to 3?

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Because it had 3 Wounds in SM/TL, 3 Mass Points in IA4, and has 6 wounds in Apoc (same as the 'dules and one more than the Trygon).

I also think its DC was bumped in 9.1 as part of the regeneration abstraction (if I'm remembering correctly). It's never had regeneration though in anything I've seen.

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Hmmm. Well the 3 mass points thing you've mis-understood, as hierodules have 2 mass points and trygons 1 mass point (The old rule of thumb was DC == mass points +1). However the others tally I guess.

How does its toughness and armour compare to hierodules & hierophants in 40k these days?

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They're both T8, Sv3+ in Apoc. In IA4 the Harridan was worse with T7, Sv3+ while the 'dule had T8, SV2+.

Ya, I get the mass-point thing, my notion was that with a save and toughness in IA4 that was worse than the 'dules I think DC3 wouldn't be out of consideration. Looking at the model we have for it too I think even DC3 is a stretch. Ya, the FW one is huge but given its rarity (and the lack of a model for the Vituperator) I'd rather stat that as the Vitu.

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