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New Special Rule Idea

 Post subject: Re: New Special Rule Idea
PostPosted: Wed Sep 28, 2011 1:45 pm 
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Evil and Chaos wrote:
This would prevent the standard "place two objectives on the mid-point of the table, move a Warlord Titan to stand between them, and instantly deny 3 objectives to the enemy", by forcing the AMTL player to use more than just one Titan to capture & contest enough objectives to almost guarantee a draw.


My question would be why would we want to do this? Has this proven to make the list so unbeatable that we need to deny it across the board? AMTL certainly doesn't have that kind of record in our group, and not for lack of doing what you describe.

Another thing to note would be that doing something like this is completely possible in most, if not all, of the core lists.

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 Post subject: Re: New Special Rule Idea
PostPosted: Wed Sep 28, 2011 1:50 pm 
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My question would be why would we want to do this?

Because it's an easy way to get a win, if gamed in the right manner.
It is genuinely game-breaking.

Make sure to place your objectives so that you can stand the Titan in some cover.

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 Post subject: Re: New Special Rule Idea
PostPosted: Wed Sep 28, 2011 2:03 pm 
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I think it would have been more readily apparent/popped-up earlier if it truly was an auto-win. Like I said, you can do this with most of the core lists with a Warlord/Great Gargant/Warlock but it hasn't been deemed game-breaking there.

Fine you get to place your objectives, but it's your opponents job to plan accordingly and stop you from pulling this. Some hard to shift formations in the cover your WE would want to hop in would be a start, followed by a few Scout screens to keep it back.

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 Post subject: Re: New Special Rule Idea
PostPosted: Wed Sep 28, 2011 2:08 pm 
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That's nice in theory, but in practice it is a surefire way to win games. Try a few with that strategy in mind if you don't believe me.

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 Post subject: Re: New Special Rule Idea
PostPosted: Wed Sep 28, 2011 2:21 pm 
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We have, Tim and Matt have both tried it with their AMTL. I've got no batreps to back it up however.

I tried what you described in a 4k with SM and a Warlord vs Chris and Matt. From what I remember the Warlord was screened and screened again. It was going to go to a fourth turn as I only had BTS but we called the game in my favor figuring I'd get TSNP or DTF as I had a good amount of Scouts to keep them penned in on their side. The Warlord never got to the objective triangle.

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Last edited by Dave on Wed Sep 28, 2011 4:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: New Special Rule Idea
PostPosted: Wed Sep 28, 2011 3:48 pm 
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I've played against various iterations of the AMTL army and have always resolved to put the objectives (on the AMTL side) as far apart from each other to prevent this from happening. Gamey, yes, but so is playing for a tie. It would seem that the two aspects would cancel each other out, wouldn't they? I mean to say, if you place the objectives far enough apart, won't your concern be answered?

As for the objectives on my side of the board, they still have to get there, which strikes me as difficult at best for AMTL. And this can be further aggravated by careful placement of your own (since there is that 30cm bubble). Am I missing something here?

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 Post subject: Re: New Special Rule Idea
PostPosted: Wed Sep 28, 2011 4:03 pm 
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On a 4x6 board the AMTL player would still be able place his two T&H 30cm apart and away from your board edge no matter where you place yours. Your own placement might prevent him from placing within 30cm of the center line but that wouldn't stop him from doing what Ben's describing.

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 Post subject: Re: New Special Rule Idea
PostPosted: Wed Sep 28, 2011 4:17 pm 
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Got it. I just don't see it being an issue in the games I've played against them, FWIW.

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 Post subject: Re: New Special Rule Idea
PostPosted: Wed Sep 28, 2011 4:23 pm 
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Quote:
It would seem that the two aspects would cancel each other out, wouldn't they? I mean to say, if you place the objectives far enough apart, won't your concern be answered?

....

Am I missing something here?



AMTL player places his 2 objectives 30cm apart on the centreline, with some terrain between.
Once in-game, the AMTL player walks a Titan into the terrain, just over the centreline.

This leaves the AMTL player denying DTF & T&H to the enemy.

The Titan player should also have a BTS Titan on his own Blitz goal (Normally a BTS Reaver with a BP weapon, CLP, and a CCW) that also denies BTS and Blitz to the enemy.

It doesn't matter where the non-AMTL player placed his objectives, because the AMTL player doesn't need to care about defending objectives (Because just as long as his forward Titan and his Blitz protector Titan remain unbroken, it's impossible for the opponent to get more than 1 Victory Condition), and isn't looking to claim any objectives other than the two he's placed (And that just to prevent the opponent claiming DTF & HTL).

The AMTL player then uses the rest of his army to take the enemy apart formation by formation, ignoring the objectives and playing for a winning draw by protecting his forward Titan with more Reaver Titans.

Getting more than one battle Titan to stand on the middle of the board in cover & contesting range of an objective is a bonus that makes a draw result highly likely.

Once you come to the draw, because Titan armies that concentrate on battle titans don't tend to lose many Titans in game, the AMTL player has likely given away fewer points than his opponent, and wins on a draw. AMTL player goes up the tournament ladder, and his opponent goes down.

It's a boring way to play, but very effective.

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 Post subject: Re: New Special Rule Idea
PostPosted: Wed Sep 28, 2011 4:32 pm 
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Hmmm, I think I want to play against an AMTL amry now to see if it can be dismantled. When you have a chance, can you post or email a few AMTL lists where this was done? I want to play against somebody who will play with this style and see if I can beat it with a weakish (in terms of firepower) army like Elysians or Dark Eldar or Space Marines. It will be fun to try it out.

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 Post subject: Re: New Special Rule Idea
PostPosted: Wed Sep 28, 2011 4:37 pm 
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Quote:
can you post or email a few AMTL lists where this was done?

I believe TRC did it a bunch with some of his 5 Reaver lists.

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 Post subject: Re: New Special Rule Idea
PostPosted: Wed Sep 28, 2011 6:11 pm 
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the thing is though, if an AMTL player intends to use this strategy to play for a draw, his opponent only needs to prevent it to have a big chance at winning. You might not see it much where you play, but the standard response that I've seen and used in this situation (even against TRC) is to use a couple of scout screens in cover. Even when broken, that Warlord still can't move through them, and if they're not broken then all they need to do is keep marshalling and laying BMs on it. If the AMTL player uses up some of his precious activations to take them out, then those fms are not doing anything to nullify the rest of the opposing army, which could then maneuver to take other objectives or break that pesky Warlord.

I'm not saying that this scout screen strategy is a sure thing as, like any other strategy in this game, it can be countered/ subject to bad luck etc. But if the AMTL player is going for a draw then it's a risky one.


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 Post subject: Re: New Special Rule Idea
PostPosted: Wed Sep 28, 2011 7:32 pm 
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At first glance I don't thinks this will be effective at doing what you want it to do. True it means the AMTL player will need to work a bit harder. But what about using a list with two warlords or a reaver/warlord combo and plonking one right next to each other? Wouldn't that have about the same effect as what you are attempting to prevent?

I'd also like to point out that the god machine rule was never implemented in an effective way. The original intent of the update was that the loss of any titan gives a BM to all AMTL formations in LOS to the lost titan which would serve to weaken the overall effectiveness of the AMTL force late game and make targeting things like warhounds worth a good bit more since it can lead to even non-damaging BM breaking that warlord holding the two objectives.

As the rule currently stands only killing a battle titan give the extra BM and then only to other titans. It really makes the rule a joke.

As far as alternatives, I'd have to think a bit on it if you are completely determined to remove the GM rule but my initial thought would be to say that AMTL isn't exactly stealthy in their approach and as a result the oppoenent can move one piece of terrain after the objectives have been placed to signify the AMTL not picking the battleground.

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 Post subject: Re: New Special Rule Idea
PostPosted: Wed Sep 28, 2011 7:44 pm 
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I quite like Senioris' "adapt the Necron rule" suggestion.

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 Post subject: Re: New Special Rule Idea
PostPosted: Wed Sep 28, 2011 8:06 pm 
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To expand on it a little: you could just give a flat ten, twenty-five or even fifty percent bonus to victory points to the player fighting the Titan Legion. Talk a lot about how valuable Titans are, so damaging them is more important than losing troops. Or how committing the Titans demonstrates the importance of an objective, so holding them off is essentially a victory.

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