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NetERC - Moving forwards

 Post subject: Re: NetERC - Moving forwards
PostPosted: Thu Sep 22, 2011 9:03 am 
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Then as a group I suggest the Army Champion's get together and pool what documents they sent to whoever was collating the army doc and get moving.

As there are currently at least 5 active AC's I suggest amongst yourselves you can get moving and agree on who is going to do what and set yourselves a deadline.


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 Post subject: Re: NetERC - Moving forwards
PostPosted: Thu Sep 22, 2011 9:08 am 
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And the missing Champions?

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 Post subject: Re: NetERC - Moving forwards
PostPosted: Thu Sep 22, 2011 9:16 am 
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PM and email them stating your need for input and include a realistic deadline for a reply and the fact that the group will consider them inactive and seek to replace them AC would seem reasonable to me....but this is now a little off topic and may be better discussed elsewhere?


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 Post subject: Re: NetERC - Moving forwards
PostPosted: Thu Sep 22, 2011 9:22 am 
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this is now a little off topic and may be better discussed elsewhere?

I don't see how. It used to be within the remit of the ERC to appoint Champions.

If you're now saying to the community, "organise the Championships yourself, I as ERC representative am washing my hands of it, I won't even be appointing an Armies Lists Committee, sort that out too", then that's definitely a very large change from the old system, and will be a very new system for "moving forwards".

This would need acceptance from Cybershadow at the least, and possibly the community at large might find the ERC's abdication of all responsibility as regards army lists oversight unpalatable.

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PM and email them stating your need for input

PM'ing Chroma (Eldar) tends not to recieve a reply, for the last two years.

The Tyranid Champion has stated he's stepped down, with no replacement.

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 Post subject: Re: NetERC - Moving forwards
PostPosted: Thu Sep 22, 2011 2:27 pm 
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Face it gents, we're in trouble here.

The netERC as a concept has failed, and effectively no longer exists. Hena and Neal have stepped down, Chroma's long-term absent leaving only Mephiston with Cybershadow's guiding influence.

The goal of the netEA project was to get a website with an armies book on it. This hasn't happened in the 3ish years we've been trying. I don't think it's unfair to say that Mephiston has little interest in the armies book project.

We need to work out right now what we're going to do, or what's left of the project will fall apart. Here's a few questions I think need answering right now.

1) Who has the current most recent version of the armies book?
2) A website was being worked on. Who was working on it, and what is its current state?
3) Are we going to continue with the NetERC system as it was, appointing new members, or are we going to try something different?
4) Are we going to approach Nealhunt to ask if he'll stay on to deal solely with the core EA rules and FAQs?

If we don't do something right now, it's game over folks.

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 Post subject: Re: NetERC - Moving forwards
PostPosted: Thu Sep 22, 2011 2:31 pm 
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zombocom wrote:
2) A website was being worked on. Who was working on it, and what is its current state?


That would be me. One of the reasons for the change over to the new system running the site was to be able to integrate the NetEA site with it. This is now my priority.

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 Post subject: Re: NetERC - Moving forwards
PostPosted: Thu Sep 22, 2011 2:57 pm 
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zombocom wrote:
Face it gents, we're in trouble here.

The netERC as a concept has failed, and effectively no longer exists. Hena and Neal have stepped down, Chroma's long-term absent leaving only Mephiston with Cybershadow's guiding influence.

The goal of the netEA project was to get a website with an armies book on it. This hasn't happened in the 3ish years we've been trying. I don't think it's unfair to say that Mephiston has little interest in the armies book project.

We need to work out right now what we're going to do, or what's left of the project will fall apart. Here's a few questions I think need answering right now.

1) Who has the current most recent version of the armies book?
2) A website was being worked on. Who was working on it, and what is its current state?
3) Are we going to continue with the NetERC system as it was, appointing new members, or are we going to try something different?
4) Are we going to approach Nealhunt to ask if he'll stay on to deal solely with the core EA rules and FAQs?

If we don't do something right now, it's game over folks.


I agree completely with Zombocom's concerns. I would go on to say that if Neal was all that was holding NetEA together then the old system was broken to begin with. I voiced these concerns to the NetERC the better part of four years ago but -at the time- the thought of Chroma, Hena, AND Neal all leaving was a fictitious concept.

E&C, I think we could allow the Army Champions to work alongside of a new Committee, or even be part of it. Set up a quorum where we would not need all Committee members to vote (usually just over half is an acceptable number). But the number of things that they would need to "vote" on would be limited to large changes anyway. Things like major rules changes and Army Champ replacements and disagreements where 2 or more Committee persons ask for a full vote.

One of the major complaints people have had is the illusion of the NetERC being an 'old boys network'. My concern was only that of fatigue. But either way we have a solution which is to expand the NetEA leadership to include more people. Many hands make for light work, right?

The good thing is we already have Army Champs in place, for the most part. Rogue Champs that go crazy and include Eldar tanks in their Space Marine lists (or other more serious offenses) can be overturned by a full Committee vote. A Committee Chair (or Secretary, if you will) can be voted on by the Committee itself, which makes it a more practical vote to conduct. This Secretary would be responsible for delegating out projects. If the Secretary quits or isn't working out or reaches their term limit (say a year) the Committee can make the change.

Normally I would say a large group is going to complicate things, but in this case the Committee members are usually the ones actually doing the work. Rules Committee Members can number anywhere between 1 and 3 in this system. You just need one person who knows the rules very well (with the acknowledgment that nobody is perfect). Any big disagreements could be brought up to a vote, once again. Virtual meetings can be conducted 1/month and votes can be tallied then.

Or we can go back to a small system and roll the dice. Maybe it will work. Maybe it won't.

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 Post subject: Re: NetERC - Moving forwards
PostPosted: Thu Sep 22, 2011 3:43 pm 
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Set up a quorum where we would not need all Committee members to vote (usually just over half is an acceptable number). But the number of things that they would need to "vote" on would be limited to large changes anyway. Things like major rules changes and Army Champ replacements and disagreements where 2 or more Committee persons ask for a full vote.


So essentially, replace the ERC with a Quorum of Champions?

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 Post subject: Re: NetERC - Moving forwards
PostPosted: Thu Sep 22, 2011 3:51 pm 
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1) Who has the current most recent version of the armies book?


It should be Neal. He had the various races, then sent them out to third parties for them to be edited.

I've still got a copy of the Eldar document (which I failed to edit due to time constraints :(), so I can cough that up when it becomes necessary. Neal was coordinating it, and so would be the obvious person to talk to re: army book.

Quote:
3) Are we going to continue with the NetERC system as it was, appointing new members, or are we going to try something different?


I'm fine with the NetERC system, but we seem to be swiftly running out of people with the prestige/service/what-have-you to fill it.

I'd say expanding the NetERC to five might help alleviate a lot of the problems. If you could persuade neal to stay, you'd need two more, but the system would be a lot more tolerant of absences.

It also might help if NetERC members weren't simultaneously trying to be Army Champions.

Quote:
4) Are we going to approach Nealhunt to ask if he'll stay on to deal solely with the core EA rules and FAQs?


I think that would be a good idea. Though he said himself he's going to stick around as Ork AC, so I think people are slightly overreacting to his absence.

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 Post subject: Re: NetERC - Moving forwards
PostPosted: Thu Sep 22, 2011 3:52 pm 
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Evil and Chaos wrote:
So essentially, replace the ERC with a Quorum of Champions?

Not a terrible idea, though it has its own problems.

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 Post subject: Re: NetERC - Moving forwards
PostPosted: Thu Sep 22, 2011 3:54 pm 
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I'd recommend against a quorum of Champions, if only because making it all one level feels like a good way to further the perception of old-boyedness. The more separate the Army Champions and the ERC-equivalent, the better, IMO.

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 Post subject: Re: NetERC - Moving forwards
PostPosted: Thu Sep 22, 2011 4:00 pm 
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This is what I was thinking. Champs are already in a recognized leadership position. It allows them to police their own and still have independence over their own lists.
12 Army Champs
1-2 Rules Champs
1-2 (other) Champs (?)

Pass decisions at 60%+. Install / remove other Committee Members at 75%+. Voting will be minimal anyway. Really the big things will be filling empty Army Champ positions or settling disagreements that go beyond normal rule clarifications.

One is voted Secretary. This word choice is rather appropriate since the Secretary would need to keep things organized, take notes, delegate tasks, etc.

I understand the concerns about a Quorum (I have some doubts myself), but -let's face it- the ERC and ACs already obscenely overlap. This would create a system where they simply cannot. It also removes problems where one person is AC over two or more lists. In the event of that person's departure (death, game fatigue, real life commitments, boredom, whatever) we've minimized the impact on the whole structure. It eliminates sub-Champions since there is a structure to appoint new Champs.

The existing system just 'selected' people. A Quorum would as well, but at least it would be a more representative selection and hopefully alleviate concerns about a choice few calling all the shots. I never had that feeling, but obviously others did.

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 Post subject: Re: NetERC - Moving forwards
PostPosted: Thu Sep 22, 2011 4:07 pm 
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Mosc, I think your approach has merit.


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 Post subject: Re: NetERC - Moving forwards
PostPosted: Thu Sep 22, 2011 4:11 pm 
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EDIT- It should be 9 Army Champions, with the potential to add more based on race (Squats for instance are arguably distinguishable enough to merit their own seat).

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 Post subject: Re: NetERC - Moving forwards
PostPosted: Thu Sep 22, 2011 4:42 pm 
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So Army Championship becomes a club that makes all the decisions and chooses its own membership.

I think that might make the optics worse, not better.

I think a lot of the OBC perception came from people like hena, who held an important role, did it in a way a lot of people disagreed with, and was the authority one would appeal to. Making the ACs the sole arbiters of authority would make that worse, not better. ACs are the major points of contact with the community - it makes sense to have another body that supervises them and which can be perceived as more neutral and separate.

I like some aspects of what you propose, mind you (separating things out more and actual formal record-keeping), but I'd recommend something more like:

-NetERC (5 people, since three leads to a lot of dropouts). Makes major rules decisions, organizes projects, appoint Army Champions after consultation with the community.
-9 Army Champions, serve major roles on projects. Tiebreak NetERC votes (when only two or four people can be found).

Nobody wears more than one hat. The NetERC burden is more widely distributed. There's continuity with the current system. And self-policing is a bit more limited.

It also might help if more discussions and plans were talked about publicly. I'm not sure how easy that would be to do, though.

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