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Rule variation - setting a limit on activations per turn

 Post subject: Re: Rule variation - setting a limit on activations per turn
PostPosted: Fri Jul 22, 2011 2:05 pm 
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There is an AC Private Discussion Chamber?

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 Post subject: Re: Rule variation - setting a limit on activations per turn
PostPosted: Fri Jul 22, 2011 2:10 pm 
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If GW were releasing a new edition and we got to write it, then it might be reasonable to redesign the core rules in the areas that are suggested, but from where we are I agree with Steve54 that it would be a terrible idea to for the epic community. It would radically change so much and there are too few of us here and only a tiny fraction of the playtesting that used to happen. A rules change just isn't going to happen, so we might as well accept the rules we have, flaws and all and work with them.

Personally I don't thinks it matters for lists to be 'finished' or that there are lots of lists, but the mind-boggling incompetence of the many years over-due army book is I think the key reason playtesting is dead/dying here.


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 Post subject: Re: Rule variation - setting a limit on activations per turn
PostPosted: Fri Jul 22, 2011 2:12 pm 
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BlackLegion :

There are Army Champions and Rule committees secret meeting rooms, yes.

the AC private ones are a long tradition, they were made for discussion with Jervis and internal coordination back in the SG forum days; other players could see the forum titles but not access to them; now we can't even see 'em.

I personally don't really feel strongly about that.


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 Post subject: Re: Rule variation - setting a limit on activations per turn
PostPosted: Fri Jul 22, 2011 2:38 pm 
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Evil and Chaos wrote:
I've asked a question about what's going on with the Tyranids in the Army Champions' private discussion area.


Looking forward to hearing some news about it :)


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 Post subject: Re: Rule variation - setting a limit on activations per turn
PostPosted: Fri Jul 22, 2011 2:40 pm 
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Athmospheric wrote:
Well I think the community is more split by the scores of lists, than it would be by a centralised, and relatively concise experimental rule set.
We're speaking about a single mechanisms at the moment (the "activation pass") and I suggested a look into the air rules as a second point.

I certainly don't want to get more involved in lists. In hindsight it feels quite pointless; you spend lots of time arguing, trying to make stuff that work, then you blink, and suddenly there are 3 different lists looking back at you. I am aware of the vast quantity of work list requires to have proper balance, and that's one of the reason why I can't fathom why the "community" feel the need for 4 different lists for each marine chapter in the first place.

I would argue that the current process and stance about development and support (ie game support = MOAR lists !) is creating both more confusion for new players and more "splits in the community" than any experimental rule-set could ever dream of creating.

Specially if it doesn't even care about lists balance at first.

All of that is a by-product of lists+publications not getting finished eg tyranids which are probably the worst offender. I don't know of any SM chapters with multiple versions in the netEA project

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 Post subject: Re: Rule variation - setting a limit on activations per turn
PostPosted: Fri Jul 22, 2011 2:45 pm 
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Athmospheric wrote:
I am only suggesting that we change a few stuff and see how it plays with current list. It is quite possible that the same army will be competitive with both the stable "tournament" rule set and the experimental one, but that you could design competitive and balanced army for both rule set with the same list.

Than again, since I think Simulated Knave (it was you, wasn't it ?) got me thinking about the way the marine lists is priced, indeed pricing the infantry with the assumption that it will get air delivered rather than charging that on the TH, I have come to the opinion that the design stance on lists in E:A is flawed. It is not the subject here however (but I can explain why I think so in another thread if you'd like to hear about that).

The point is, so much revolve around army lists as a focus (as THE focus one might say), and there are so many lists around in half finished state -quite often competing against each others- that the argument going "but if we do that the community will never be able to finish what it started" is moot. Lists published at game release time 6 years (or is it 7 years ?) ago are still evolving - and I think it's a good thing- we really shouldn't let that detract us from doing other thing for the game.

Now, if you had arguments going "Activations are really fine, and here's why this or that change would actually not make better rules or add anything significant", THAT would relevant to the discussion.
But as it is, many people have made points about some flaws the system has in its current state* and some possible ways to fix it or make it better, and I think what this thread needs now is to settle on an experimental rules that volunteer may decide to playtest or not, or discussion about the pertinence of a limited rule overhaul, but please not based on the status of army lists. Army lists development is the quagmire that is making the game less and less accessible, and the community so split. Most of the rules committees work and what split them is really mostly which lists are official or not anyway, and not about the rules. The rules are not what split the Epic community, online or not, English-speaking, or not.

A quick survey of the stuff most often house-ruled by people and for what reason might be nice, on the other hand. As I already said, I think the air-rules are a likely candidate.


* which, again, is not a harsh critic. It is on the contrary remarkable that we found so few problems in the rule set in 8 years that couldn't be solved by a FAQ entry.


edited for spelling

Your not suggesting a small change though, chnaging the activation system changes the vlaues of every unit in every list. Even small rules changes such as -1 to CAP attacks, aircraft not holding objectives have large effects so messing with the srtucture of the game will have a huge effect on the game and how it plays.

For the record I think the activation system is fine. The problem is more th ability of the points-sink unit and its synergy with the rest of the list.

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 Post subject: Re: Rule variation - setting a limit on activations per turn
PostPosted: Fri Jul 22, 2011 3:05 pm 
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Steve54 wrote:
All of that is a by-product of lists+publications not getting finished eg tyranids which are probably the worst offender.

The tyranids of course come to mind, agreed.

Steve54 wrote:
I don't know of any SM chapters with multiple versions in the netEA project

You might see several take on several chapters in the pinned "Current Space Marine Lists" thread in the marines sub forum. It actually does not refer all lists, I wasn't able to find Angel of Caliban take on the Dark Angels there for example.


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 Post subject: Re: Rule variation - setting a limit on activations per turn
PostPosted: Fri Jul 22, 2011 3:07 pm 
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Quote:
You might see several take on several chapters in the pinned "Current Space Marine Lists" thread in the marines sub forum. It actually does not refer all lists, I wasn't able to find Angel of Caliban take on the Dark Angels there for example.

Space Marines have lacked a dedicated Champion for a couple of years now, I'm not surprised there's been a little diversification.

The state of the Marine lists is nothing like the tragedy that is the Tyranid sub-forum, however.

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 Post subject: Re: Rule variation - setting a limit on activations per turn
PostPosted: Sat Jul 30, 2011 4:12 pm 
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i had a thought. how about a reverse retain initiative action. a unit attempts a "pass" action at -1. if it fails, it activates as though failing an activation, if it passes the test, it doesnt make (or use) its activation. only allow it after a successful activation the roll before (not including other pass activations) or simply only allow each formation to attempt it once per turn. so a 6 activation army could theoretically take 11 activations.
makes it a big risk to attempt, but lets slower or more reactive armies work better.
like any activation modification, would probably mess with a bunch of balance and metagame concerns, but hey, its an idea, right?

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 Post subject: Re: Rule variation - setting a limit on activations per turn
PostPosted: Fri Sep 09, 2011 10:23 am 
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heres a thought, why not play the turn normally untill one player runs out of activations, any activations his opponant has remaining may only take a hold action, so high activation lists still have an advantage - which they should i think - but the usefulness of any units not given any specific orders drops dramatically as they are forced to act on their own initiative?


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 Post subject: Re: Rule variation - setting a limit on activations per turn
PostPosted: Fri Sep 09, 2011 11:21 am 
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That would encourage a player (particularly the one with fewer activations) to retain as often as possible to hamstring as many enemy formations as possible. I don't think that's a behavior to encourage.

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 Post subject: Re: Rule variation - setting a limit on activations per turn
PostPosted: Wed Sep 14, 2011 6:56 pm 
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good point, i didnt think of that, what if it just went off the number of formations?


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 Post subject: Re: Rule variation - setting a limit on activations per turn
PostPosted: Thu Sep 15, 2011 12:15 am 
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i still think the "pass" activation has merit

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