Well, my understanding is that either it breaks a fundemental rule in E:A. (that each formation only activates once in a turn); or it makes the initial activation overly powerfull.

Taking these in reverse order, the formation could start off-table, and declare 'self planetfall' anywhere on the table, presumably as part of an assault. It cannot be shot at by AA or intercepted by CAP, so unless there is some nearby formation on OW, the assault has no BMs. Ok this is the same situation that we currently have but here is the rub - I do not just have one, but two, three or 'many' such formations all waiting to planetfall, and because 'self planetfall' is only a single activation, I can retain and take advantage of the chaos left by the first assault.

The alternative idea is that 'self planetfall' somehow takes up an activation in its own right, so it is declared the formation arrives etc. The activation is over, but is the formation treated as "activated" or not? If not (because the whole principle behind teleport, planetfall etc is to put the formation onto the table), then I have gained an activation, and can quite cheerfully use my two, three or 'many' such 'self-planetfall' activations to stall in a quite outrageous fashion .

Either way, both are much more powerfull than the current 'spaceship' planetfall mechanic, because the threat is not on the table, the mechanic allows the player to retain without giving the opponent a chance to react, and it can be repeated several times.

Of course, Atmospheric has the answer:- we just need to specify that the Elysians have access to some form of spaceship that serves as the source of the planetfalling troops and 'universal balance' is restored - even if that spaceship is only Major Tom's "tin can"

Update time:

1. Did some significant re-vamping of values on the list.

2. Played a game last night at least as far as it needed to go. Got my gluts handed to me by the latest Tau (not uncommon of late).

3. Did a fair amount of post game analysis and have arrived at some decisions/observations:

i. Try as I might, the AA capabilities just aren't working better than 50/50. I.e. if I get the chance to CAP first, it's Ok, if not, it's bad. Hence, I am ready to adopt the Vannaheim CAP rule. If someone can point me to the proper list so that I can add their language I would appreciate it.

ii. SR 3 made things a bit closer against the Tau, but I still didn't win any initiatives. Still it is better than where it was so that will stay.

iii. Points have dropped on quite a few things to up the activation count. I was able to get to 12 reasonable activations, but losing the initiative meant that the fragility inherent in the existing formations meant that I still didn't have problems losing stuff and by the time I was -4 on activations, the end became obvious.

iv. Iron Discipline helped save one upgraded drop company in the face of some heavy fire power.

v. I had good and bad rolls with Teleport as far as BMs go. One issue that was brought up regarding mixed formations (e..g drop company + infantry + drop sentinels) is that it is possible to preserve the shooting of macro armed units at the expense of lesser armed units. Not seeing that as a bad thing necessarily, but previously, I had always allocated dice to the various units in the formation and rolled accordingly. The rules state that BMs are applied to the formation, not units.

vi. Important formations are still pretty fragile in the face of equivalent opponents, e.g. Vendettas vs. Hammerheads. All things being equal, a formation of HHs should beat a formation of Vendettas, but the Vendettas don't really hang around to hit unless they strike first. Some of that comes from the larger formation size that HHs get, the other is their better range. Sometimes terrain isn't always able to help.

vii. Looking back at old fluff, Valkyries used to be space capable. I'm not sure when that changes. This is not to infer that I am in support of self-Planetfall as I'm not. It was a whole can of worms that I'd rather we never opened for the Manta, however, Atmospheric's idea of some sort of cheap deliverer of Valkyries is an interesting idea that we should discuss, i.e. pluses/minuses, what does it provide that the current list doesn't. What would you do with that capability.

I think that's it for now. I will update and post with the revisions in the next couple of days.

Cheers,

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- 23rd Elysian Drop Regiment

Here's the doc for the Vanaheim CAP wording.

http://www.epic-uk.co.uk/lists/Epic-UK% ... 0codex.pdf

Page 25.

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SG

Ghost's Paint Blog, where everything goes that isn't something else.

Valkyries probably lost space capability when someone noticed they have jet engines.

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according to the codex, ones attached to a gaurd regiment as air support are typically fitted with heaveier armour and different weaponry. can get real quote tomorrow.

As i said previously:
Make a unit constisting of a bunch of Valkyries/Vendettas which has the WE-Aircraft rules.

Else some kind of Imperial Lander which can transport Valkyries/Vendettas (and nothing else).

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A WE aircraft squadron made up of multiple models (that are all non-war engines) makes no sense.

It's rules-creating for the sake of rules-creating...

And unless there is actually a lander that exists in the 40k universe that can planetfall with valkyries/vendettas in it, that also makes no sense.

There is plenty of established background and rules. Making a list involves working within the established framework or rules and background that already exists, not just randomly making up things just because you think they'd be "cool".

I mean, as a Steel Legion player; I'd LOVE to have a WE with DC 10 that transports my Leman Russ companies into battle, so they don't take any casualties, and then can support them in firefight range, and maybe it can even have tentacles that reach out and defend them in close combat... Even better if I can put my Artillery companies in one, and allow them shoot out of the top of it too!

The problem being; it doesn't exist in the 40k universe, and doesn't fit within the established rules.

@getupandgo: The alternative is either to give Valkyries/Vendettas the Aircraft rules with the option to switch to Skimmers as the fluff and Wh40k supports this. Or to allow them to use the WE transport rules.

But suggesting anything of the above on this board is like throwing eggs at a wall. So i proposed something new which is supported by existing rules.

And Imperial Landers DO exist in fluff. It seems that they don't make combat drops like Thunderhawks but there has to be something which transports Valkyries/Vendettas/Vultures to the planet (or at least into the atmosphere of the planet).
At least it should be something high flying (and thus invulnerable to aircraf tinterceptors...duh) which gives a formation of Valkyries/Vendettas/Vultures Planetfall/Teleport or something.

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BL, you left out a viable option which is to leave the deployment methods alone. The Elysians already have flexible deployment options. The push here is to either replace one of them or add another. So far every suggestion that has been proposed pushes the limits of logic for me.

Self-planetfall is so far the only one that comes even close to making sense, but I still think it is unneeded.

Planetfall requires a ship of some type that simply doesn't exist in the background. Valkyries do not deploy from spacecraft. Ever. Jump troops do not jump from spacecraft. Ever. It not only makes no sense from a fluff perspective or a rules perspective but a physics perspective.

Getupandgo and the others IMO are correct. Deployment wise, it is safe to assume Elysians are already on the planet surface 'somewhere' and stay within the atmosphere; no meteorite guardsmen needed.

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My proposal is about retaining mobility AFTER deploying.

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Then play an army that operates that way.

Elysians drop, hold on, and hope for the best... They don't go zooming around the battlefield. They're airmobile infantry.

Or, if you prefer, you CAN play a mobile Elysian list, in a skimmer heavy Elysian army.

With teleporting drop companies, they have the ability to appear anywhere on the board.. You are then proposing that they use war engine rules in a formation that isn't filled with war engines, or turn Valkyries into flyers... Neither of these things really make sense. If you turned valkyries into flyers, you'd probably have to double the points cost from 150 to 300 for 4 to keep things balanced.

Valkyries aren't flyers in the E:A rulebook for a reason... Unless you have a good reason to go against that established rule, other than "I'd like them to be more powerful", then is only logical to keep them as they are; as skimmers.

While "Teleport" works well as a analogue for parachuting, having the skimmer formations on-table where they can be hit by pre-emptive strikes is less appropriate IMHO. The Elysians would strike over ranges much greater than those represented by the 6'x4' table (even alowing for elastic scales) which means that they should start from a point where they cannot be attacked by anything.

As an alternative means to represent this 'deep strike' nature, perhaps we could have a special rule that allows the Elysian skimmers to 'fly' in from behind their deployment zone. Perhaps something like this:-

Long Range Skimmer forces
The Elysians specialise in long range skimmer operations to support their airmobile infantry. To represent this, all skimmer formations may start off-table. Only the lead vehicle is 'deployed' on the table edge to indicate the starting point for the formation which is otherwise entirely off-table. The formation must be activated as normal except it may not fire or go on OW until the it enters the table

Elysian valkyries would still be facing long range artillery fire, aircraft, and other foes while they are flying towards battle. If you want to be "realistic", then the battle doesn't just start at the edge of a 6x4 table.

But more to the point; why stop at Elysians? Why couldn't Eldar have this same rule for their Falcons? Why not Tau skimmers? Why not fast-moving Ork buggies?

And before someone stands up and says "hey, that's a great idea!", that's not at all what I'm proposing.

Short of long range firepower (+90cm), teleporters, and aircraft, there's just about nothing that can touch you first turn without first activating and moving. It seems to me, that it would be extremely over-powered to give a special rule to Elysians only that allow them to begin the game off board, without then having to teleport in and face potential blast markers. And please don't tell me that someone has proposed teleporting valkyries...

I don't really see what the issue is. I'm going to proxy a skimmer-heavy list and play a couple of games with it, but I don't see why it would be any worse off than a falcon-heavy eldar list, which can be quite effective if played correctly.

I do hear you, honest. However I think we may have slightly different models in mind.

Firstly the Elysians should be an infantry-heavy force (with suitable upgrades to give them teeth and resilience), not a skimmer-heavy force (which are Vaneheim).

Secondly, because of the constraints of the rule system and the desire to model an "air-drop" mechanic, the list really does not represent transport flexibility that is IMHO appropriate. This ought to be a limited capability that is organised and run separately from the main forces (like the US helecopter companies and divisions in Vietnam)

However, the rules as they are mandate the use of transport attached to the formation (WE are excluded as not fitting the "Fluff"). The result is that this limited capability is not flexible and also easily destroyed premtively, leaving the forces split and unable to support each other - and the opponent then destroys them piecemeal.

While Rug's "short-side" option has merits, it really does not stop the above events from happening. IMHO the one thing that would help here is to find some way of keeping the "reserves" in reserve - off-table; and preferably as separate capabilities or formations.

So, how do we go about achieving this?