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The 'new' Adeptus Astartes and you

 Post subject: Re: The 'new' Adeptus Astartes and you
PostPosted: Tue Aug 02, 2011 10:02 pm 
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Interesting comment. When I do this, the preference is for Devastators, 2x Dreadnoughts and a Hunter. Although slightly weaker, it is cheaper and has more firepower. It also has better rangeed AT shots, though the Vindi has some AP shooting.

However, adding the Vindi to Land Raiders does make some sense as it adds some usefull firepower and has better armour than the Hunter. However it probably relegates the formation to a more defensive role as it wont fit in the LC. When I have taken LRs, I have put them in Landing Craft to get them into the fray. Planet fall somewhere in the middle of the table and then sustain - it can really upset enemy armour :0 (a Similar trick is to do this with Whirlwinds that are positioned behind the LC for cover).


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 Post subject: Re: The 'new' Adeptus Astartes and you
PostPosted: Tue Aug 02, 2011 11:10 pm 
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Ginger wrote:
When I have taken LRs, I have put them in Landing Craft to get them into the fray. Planet fall somewhere in the middle of the table and then sustain - it can really upset enemy armour :0 (a Similar trick is to do this with Whirlwinds that are positioned behind the LC for cover).


That does sound like a fun trick; I don't have a LC yet (it's in the painting queue), but I'll be sure to try it at the earliest opportunity. I do like Land Raiders (they're so iconic), so I'll take any excuse to field them efficiently with thanks.

Also, I dont have either Whirlwinds or Hunters; I've made do without artillery (I don't really miss it, though), and while I do miss ground AA, I've used T'Bolts for AA/prep duty instead. The list still works well.


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 Post subject: Re: The 'new' Adeptus Astartes and you
PostPosted: Sun Aug 07, 2011 11:10 pm 
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Could Land Raiders have an upgrade which allowed Veteran Space Marines (representing Sternguard/Vanguard) to be included? That'd give them something to carry round, and there's currently no allowance for Power Armoured Veterans (which have appeared in lots of the previous editions and are an important background factor) in the list.

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 Post subject: Re: The 'new' Adeptus Astartes and you
PostPosted: Sun Aug 07, 2011 11:17 pm 
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The problem with veterans is that they end up just the same as Tacticals as their stats would generally be very similar that they would basically compete with each other for space in the list. In the end "Tacticals" are veterans to a certain degree.


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 Post subject: Re: The 'new' Adeptus Astartes and you
PostPosted: Sun Aug 07, 2011 11:20 pm 
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Veterans are absorbed into the stats for Tactical Marines and their characters.


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 Post subject: Re: The 'new' Adeptus Astartes and you
PostPosted: Sun Aug 07, 2011 11:22 pm 
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Logically, they'd be Tacticals with Scout.

It would seem hard to keep them distinct.

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 Post subject: Re: The 'new' Adeptus Astartes and you
PostPosted: Mon Aug 08, 2011 9:22 am 
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What, like the Black Legion Chosen?

Anyway, I'd go further and give them something like CC 3+, FF 4+ and 5+/5+ plasma gun(s) instead of a missile launcher. Multiple assault weapons like Meltas, Plasma guns and Flamers seems much more in keeping with marines anyway.


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 Post subject: Re: The 'new' Adeptus Astartes and you
PostPosted: Mon Aug 08, 2011 10:06 am 
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Tacticals would already carry those things in their squads now it's just at Epic level the weapons get abstracted down. Their 4+FF most likely incorporates those weapon stats already.


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 Post subject: Re: The 'new' Adeptus Astartes and you
PostPosted: Mon Aug 08, 2011 10:10 am 
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MikeT wrote:
What, like the Black Legion Chosen?


I thought of this also however then I got to thinking - what purpose would they serve?

The Marine list already has scout INF and scout LV. If the unit would not provide something different that would add to the list, then what is the point?

I think there is a place for Veterans however it is not in Scout. Every other idea has also hit a brick wall of opinion so I would rather not go through all that again. Perhaps it is something for a variant list to show in the future.

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 Post subject: Re: The 'new' Adeptus Astartes and you
PostPosted: Tue Aug 16, 2011 3:10 pm 
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My suggestion for Veterans:

Four stands, identical stats to Tacticals, thick rear armour, access to Land Raiders for transport.

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 Post subject: Re: The 'new' Adeptus Astartes and you
PostPosted: Tue Aug 16, 2011 3:13 pm 
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Why?


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 Post subject: Re: The 'new' Adeptus Astartes and you
PostPosted: Tue Aug 16, 2011 3:41 pm 
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Why include them in general? I'd argue Veteran Space Marines are just as important as Scouts, Terminators and other aspects of the list. Lots of Chapters have special groups such as Honour Guard, Tyranid Hunters, Pyre Guard, Sword Brethren and Wolf Guard – not to mention generic 'Veterans' from the older lists, and Sternguard from the newer.

If you don't want to have a specialised Chapter list and prefer a centralised simple list to cover all Chapters, a Veteran formation gives the nod to these. Finally, a differentiated Veteran formation is a good way of allowing people to include old models they have, and provide a visual centrepiece for an army.

Why the specific rules I've suggested? Land Raiders don't seem to be hugely popular, but a small, tough, and easily-hidden formation that combines infantry and vehicles would be a nice way of including these great models without changing the points values/stats for the rest of the list. The two unit types (Veterans and Land Raiders) complement each other in the background, too, and differentiates them from the Tactical Marines formation (the smaller formation size helps here).

I thought Thick Rear Armour would be a neat way to represent improved morale and adaptability over and above Tactical/Assault/Devastator Marines, and provides a link to their Terminator-armoured Brethren. In-game, it should allow the player to use their Veterans aggressively: to plug gaps, be ground-based objective snatchers, and generally act heroically, something I think a ground-pounding Marine list lacks.

:)

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 Post subject: Re: The 'new' Adeptus Astartes and you
PostPosted: Tue Aug 16, 2011 3:43 pm 
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Why not Veterans? Because they are generally equipped and fight like Tacticals. They are simply better tacticals. Scouts, Terminators, Assault Marines with Jump Packs - they all fight in a way markedly different to tacticals. Saying "these tacticals represent terminators" is ludicrous, but saying "a tactical formation can be considered to include a stand or two of veterans" is not.


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 Post subject: Re: The 'new' Adeptus Astartes and you
PostPosted: Tue Aug 16, 2011 3:55 pm 
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Ulrik wrote:
Why not Veterans? Because *SNIP* They are simply better tacticals.


So why lump them together? ;)

Facetiousness aside, they aren't equipped like Tactical Marines, nor do they operate like them; either in the game or the background.

Veteran Marines have access to the best equipment the Chapter can supply ranging from hallowed relic weaponry and armour to specialist ammunition types. They can requisition and command the Chapter's best vehicles and are entrusted with the most vital missions – either daring breakthroughs or hold-at-all-costs defences. They directly support commanders on the battlefield, acting as bodyguards, advisors and a vital inspiration to their less-experienced brethren, both from a morale and spiritual standpoint. The First Company of any Chapter is a very different beast to the Battle Companies, and it's not just because they include Terminators.

Don't get me wrong, I won't lose any sleep if they never emerge in the official NetEA list, but I still think that Veterans in the background – and in modern versions of the list – aren't well represented by the standard Codex Astartes list. To me, power-armoured Veterans represent a good way to address a few consistent bugbears with the list I've seen from many on this website – including what to do with/where to use Dreadnoughts and Land Raiders; an inability to deal with War Engines; and the comparative weakness of infantry/tank-based lists in comparison with Thunderhawk/Terminator-based lists.

Developing my suggestions above, how about:

Veterans: Four stands
Speed 15cm
CC 3+
FF 3+
Some sort of short-ranged MW (a la melta guns in other lists) rather than the Missile Launcher of Tacticals?)
Thick Rear Armour

Upgrades:
Commander
0–2 Land Raider transport option
0–4 Dreadnought option
Hunter
0–2 Vindicator

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Last edited by Apologist on Tue Aug 16, 2011 4:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: The 'new' Adeptus Astartes and you
PostPosted: Tue Aug 16, 2011 4:06 pm 
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Apologist wrote:
Ulrik wrote:
Why not Veterans? Because *SNIP* They are simply better tacticals.


So why lump them together? ;)


Because Epic needs a certain amount of abstraction. Like how all tacticals are armed with missile launchers, but it really represents a mix of lascannons, heavy bolters and missile launchers that average out to AP5+/AT6+. Veterans being subsumed into tacticals has been a principle in Epic from day 1, IIRC.


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