Errants always were the same speed as Paladins in SM/TL era - not necessarily saying this should be the sole reason for changing them back to the slower speed - but shouldnt we be aligning with the fluff and the unit having 'similar' stats/performance of its original release?
If they're too short range and too slow (comparatively) and there's a need to keep them the same cost as the other core Knight units - may look at giving them another ability to make up for it?

The Void shields are also a bugbear for me. The reason given so far, as i raised this in another thread i think, was 'it was agreeed earlier and no one had a problem with it then'. I don't think thats a valid reason, not that i want to discredit all the hard work that has gone into making the Knightworld list what it is now.

The Castellan/Crusaders slow speed and lack of CAF (in SM/TL era) was balanced by its firepower and 2+ invulnnerable save from the front arc.
In EA, i feel we have reflected the firepower well, and i understand we cant make its armour 2+, however maybe there's another way. Dropping the Void Shield and adding Knight Shield would drop the cost right, then up the Quake Cannon to 3BP from the 2BP it is now.
In the SM/TL era, it was the same stats as the titan Quake Cannon.
Would this bump be enough?
If not, maybe a further slight cost reduction?

Tee

The problem is that the slower/less durable you make Knights, the cheaper they have to be, and the more Knights you need for a list.

Maybe it's just me, but chasing down OOP models (or proxying, of course) is enough of a pain without having to do it on an even larger scale.

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I agree - the Knights are already painful enough to find at a reasonable cost - decreasing the cost was only a part of the idea.

Would adding ATSKNF (as discussed) bump the cost up - sinces its better than Indomitable?

Tee

It certainly would. Anything to prevent breaking a unit is better than a rule to manage a unit once it is broken.

My initial suggestion was +25 points on each formation. Other feedback has stated it should be more.

From the feedback so far, a small increase in the support unit that Carlos mentioned as well as ATSKNF for the Knights and a +25 point increase in their formations may just do it. There is always the fact that assault armies find these guys hard, but they are knights - they are supposed to be tough.

As stated before, my main concern was the activation count. Getting this down by 1 or 2 formations I feel would also make it acceptable to most opponents who come across them for the first time.

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In regard to Knight speed:

Paladins were originally 20/40, Lancers 24/48, Wardens 12/24.

A Warhound was 24/36, Reavers were 16/24 or 20/30, and Warlords were 12/18 or 14/21 (the second number is charge distance).

So a particularly direct translation would dictate that a Lancer would be 30cm with Infiltrate, a Paladin would be 25 or so (and probably also have infiltrate), and a Warden would move 15 (and, again, probably have Infiltrate).

Honestly, the speeds aren't that crazy at all, looking at that.

(Info from WD126, BTW)

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What rule system are those speeds from?

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Dave

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Adeptus Titanicus.

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No, purposely trying different combinations, which I feel is an important component of playtesting. Model availability definitely isn't an issue, except for Errants (I have only 7, counting MK I Paladins I'm using as proxies). I own "only" 6 Castellans and 3 Crusaders, but except in a big game, I can't imagine taking more than 1 formation of either one in a 3k game.

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I forgot about barging in my above post about 25 cm + infiltrator. With barging, infiltrator really isn't needed. I do agree with Dave on the speeds listed above.

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Am back now. Still unpacking and sleeping (33+ hrs flying and a 14hr timeshift isn't conducive to good sleeping habits).

Read through the thread, some good ideas, some good critiques. I'll comment further when I get back on schedule.

The one thing I wanted to point out, was SK's statement above. Knights aren't going to come down significantly in price, especially the Lancers/Errants. I know it's an arbitrary concept, but the rarity of the figures (or suitable proxies) is something I do have to address. Having a list that is too cost prohibitive to play, defeats the purpose of 'resurrecting' them in the first place.

Morgan Vening
- KnightWorld SubChampion

Aye, i agree with this ove-arching theme.
One of the solutions was adding ATSKNF - that would at least keep the costs the same, likely up them.

Can i please also mention, as a couple of others have, that the Castellan/Crusader get a review to look at removing the Void Shield? It's a random, non-fluff entry that seems to be there solely due to some very early discussion - and doesnt really 'fit' IMO.

I believe that the Errant shouldnt be the same speed as the Lancer, its clearly visibly not a 'fast' Knight chassis, however the problem will be making them viable on the tabletop as they couple 'slow' speed of the the Paladin, with shorter range weaponry...

Tee

If any force other than Space marines would have the ability to ignore suppression that ATSKNF implies, it'd be Knights. They're borderline 2DC war engines anyway (being substantially larger than a Leman Russ for instance), so it's not really that much of a stretch.

Regarding Errant speed; I don't think dropping their speed to the same as paladins would cause too much trouble if slightly more emphasis was given to their FF value and they were played more like Leman Russ Demolishers. They already have their 30cm MW 4+ shooting attack so they're good there, but I worry that bumping their FF to 4+ would be too much compensation for dropping their move to 20cm.

I like as it is in the trial 1.3 I've been using w/ Errants and Lancers at 75 pts and Paladins at 50 pts (but with a minimum of 4 per fm). I'll reiterate what I said earlier - the DC1 knights need specialization to make them interesting to play and to allow different builds and tactics. As such, the Paladin at 50 pts (or 65 or whatever but less than the others) could play the slow-ish and basic knight that forms the backbone of the army w/ the others being specialized in certain tasks.

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I think the hesitation with ATSKNF is that while we have all this favourable feedback and push to use it, as soon as it is instigated, we are going to have all the 'nay-sayers' come out of the woodwork sprouting their beliefs about how it is just a Marine only ability.

I say do it. Put on ATSKNF and let's get to testing it. It is tyring to see development consistently halted (not this list specifically) due to the 'possibility' of rejection. If we can put such rules as 'Lance' into the Dvergatal and Chaos Squats, we can put ATSKNF into the Knights. It should be seen as an Epic:A rule, not just a Marine rule.

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Well, that, and once one list does it all kinds of lists may.

And, to be fair, it is a Marine rule, in much the same way Hit and Run is an Eldar rule and Commissars is an IG rule. It's a special rule attached to the army lists, not a general one.

The Fourth and Fifth edition rulebooks both had excellent overviews of how things work. I'd recommend picking up some of the old 4th Edition 40K stuff - it's cheap, but the fluff is still current.

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