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[Weapons] Issues with Plasma weapons

 Post subject: Re: [Weapons] Issues with Plasma weapons
PostPosted: Wed Aug 10, 2011 6:50 am 
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Plasma Guns are, if anything, currently excessively good at destroying vehicles. They're better than missile launchers, which are (after all) designed for it.

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 Post subject: Re: [Weapons] Issues with Plasma weapons
PostPosted: Wed Aug 10, 2011 6:55 am 
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Simulated Knave wrote:
Plasma Guns are, if anything, currently excessively good at destroying vehicles. They're better than missile launchers, which are (after all) designed for it.

Good Point SK.....Maybe the Plasma gun should be AT6.

So maybe....

Plasma Cannon 30cm AP4/AT6
Plasma Gun 15cm AP5/AT6

OR

Plasma Cannon 30cm 2x AP4/AT6
Plasma Gun 15cm AP4/AT6

First maybe easier to impalement and balance, eh?


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 Post subject: Re: [Weapons] Issues with Plasma weapons
PostPosted: Wed Aug 10, 2011 7:51 am 
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Plasma Cannon has better AP simply because it hits more dudes. Remember that an AP kill isn't one dead man, it's a dead team of men. A 40k Plasma Gun only hits one guy, but the Cannon could wipe out a whole 3-5 with relative ease.

Also, Missile Launchers are apparently using only Frag Missiles. Underwing Hunter-Killer Missiles are the same weapon as Krak missiles in 40k, but they're AT4+ vs the Missile Launcher's AT6+ in Epic. In a way, I'd say that's an even better endorsement of Plasma weapons having AT5+. They really are a good light vehicle killer in 40k, especially when you consider Stormtroopers are packing 3 Plasma Guns, (3xStr 7) vs the single maybe-Krak missile Launcher (Str 4/8) Downgrading Plasma Guns to 15cm AP5+AT6+ would also nastily cripple the usefulness of Stormtroopers.

Higher level Plasma weapons are inevitably Macroweapons, so what about making Plasma Cannons into: Plasma Cannon 30cm AP4+/AT5+ Lance? Makes them quite useful against reinforced armor units, especially Terminators (who should truly fear Plasma Cannons)


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 Post subject: Re: [Weapons] Issues with Plasma weapons
PostPosted: Wed Aug 10, 2011 8:14 am 
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Except Autocannons have the same profile as Missile Launchers, and I know they're not using Frag rounds...

The HK missiles are an anomaly, IMO. That, and as I recall, HK missiles don't need to roll to-hit - it may be representing that.

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 Post subject: Re: [Weapons] Issues with Plasma weapons
PostPosted: Wed Aug 10, 2011 8:19 am 
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If there good at Killing LV in 40k then why do they need a good AT in Epic? There AP fire can kill LV in Epic so it is fine/fluffy to have bad AT right? Also do you think Lance is really needed?? I still wouldn't want my Terminators to be hit by AP4 guns.


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 Post subject: Re: [Weapons] Issues with Plasma weapons
PostPosted: Wed Aug 10, 2011 9:35 am 
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In Wh40k all non-Titan Plasma weapons have Strength 7 and Armourpiercing 2 (which allows NO armour save, only Invulnerable Saves).
The Plasmagun has a range of 24" and can hit two guys at 12" and 1 guy up to 24".
The Plasma Cannon has a range if 36" and has the small blast template. If the target bunches up you can hit ca 3 guys with it*.
The Leman Russ Executioner's Executioner Plasma Cannon is identical to the Plasma Cannon but has 3 blast templates.

What is a Light Vehicle in Epic has an Armour Value of 10 all around in Wh40k. To penetrate armour you roll a D6 and add the Strength of the weapon to it. IS the result higher than the target vehicle's armour you are able to destroy it.

In my WhES Stregth 7 is the minimum required to have an AT value (at AT6+).

Funnily the Missile Launcher (Strength 4 Blast or Strength 8) cames out as AP6+/AT5+ :D

*having 3 shots OR a small blast template is the minimum requiremend to have a ranged shot in the WhES. Exepction is a hight Strength hsot as the Plasmagun where Rapid Fire (usually a small arms feature, Boltguns, Lasguns, etc are Rapid Fire) suffice.

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 Post subject: Re: [Weapons] Issues with Plasma weapons
PostPosted: Wed Aug 10, 2011 12:24 pm 
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Direct translation just isn't going to work.

There's nothing wrong with plasma guns at all, 30cm AP5+/AT5+ works completely fine. Plasma cannons have a problem, but lets not change plasma guns as there's nothing at all wrong with them.


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 Post subject: Re: [Weapons] Issues with Plasma weapons
PostPosted: Wed Aug 10, 2011 12:39 pm 
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Fortunately the statlineon the Stormtroopers says "Plasmaguns" not "Plasmagun". So they have at least two which explains the higher AT value than the WhES calculates. That the AP value is worthe could have something to fo with that a Plasmagun is only a Rapid Fire weapon instead of Heavy/Assault 3 or Heavy/Assault 1 Blast.

Conclusion:
(multiple) Plasmaguns = AP5+/AT5+ = fine
Plasma Cannon = AT4+/AT4+ slow-fire = problem

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 Post subject: Re: [Weapons] Issues with Plasma weapons
PostPosted: Wed Aug 10, 2011 12:45 pm 
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There is no game problem with plasma guns at all. They work completely fine. There is a game problem with plasma cannons, so let's just fix that, shall we?

As BL says, multiple plasmaguns become AP5+/AT5+. I see no reason why a single plasma cannon shouldn't be 30cm AP5+/AT5+.

Multiple guns with rapid fire will hit about the same number of guys as a small template, so the only real difference is the range.


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 Post subject: Re: [Weapons] Issues with Plasma weapons
PostPosted: Wed Aug 10, 2011 6:41 pm 
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I definitely agree that plasmaguns should remain as they are.

My "Light Vehicle" comment wasn't referring to the LV type, but rather attacking Rhinos, Chimeras, IG Artillery vehicles, and things like that. Those are all "AV" units.

The 30cm AP5+/AT5+ profile isn't very appealing to me, as it makes a Plasma Cannon an inferior choice against infantry than a Missile Launcher, (due to the range) which doesn't seem right. Hell, they'd be exactly equivalent to Heavy Bolters in anti-personnel fire. While it's definitely true that the Antitank capability improves them, it still feels lackluster. The Executioner's three-Plasma Cannon shot main gun is a MW4+ weapon, and I feel like the Plasma Cannon needs to represent a point on the continuum between the Executioner and the Plasma Gun. While the PC definitely doesn't need to be a Macroweapon, it seems like either giving it 5+/5+ Lance or AP4+/AT5+ would be a good way to establish its identity as an intermediate between the two. Giving it the same profile as the Plasma Guns just widens the gap between P.Guns and the Executioner even further. (At least now the PC shares the 4+ damage profile with the Executioner, and the Slow Firing status of the Blastguns)


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 Post subject: Re: [Weapons] Issues with Plasma weapons
PostPosted: Wed Aug 10, 2011 7:07 pm 
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Lance makes no sense, it makes them more effectively against tough armour, but no better against normal armour. It'd rule against leman russ, but be not much cop against rhinos. That's not representative.

Lance should only be used for weapons which are supposed to do that, i.e. eldar lance weapons.


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 Post subject: Re: [Weapons] Issues with Plasma weapons
PostPosted: Wed Aug 10, 2011 7:10 pm 
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 Post subject: Re: [Weapons] Issues with Plasma weapons
PostPosted: Wed Aug 10, 2011 8:38 pm 
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zombocom wrote:
Lance makes no sense, it makes them more effectively against tough armour, but no better against normal armour. It'd rule against leman russ, but be not much cop against rhinos. That's not representative.

Lance should only be used for weapons which are supposed to do that, i.e. eldar lance weapons.


My thinking was that since the attack stat sorta represents a mix between "to hit" and "to hurt," it wouldn't be improving their actual damage value any, just harming those who rely on really tough durability to shrug off attacks. You are correct in that it's not fully representative, but 30cm 5+/5+ just doesn't really cut it as the intermediate between 15cm 5+/5+ and 60cm MW4+. Especially because the Executioner Plasma Cannon is exactly the same as a Plasma Cannon, just firing faster. Same range, strength, AP, and everything.


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 Post subject: Re: [Weapons] Issues with Plasma weapons
PostPosted: Wed Aug 10, 2011 8:41 pm 
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30cm MW5+? 30cm AT4+/AP5+? 30cm AT3+/AT5+?

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 Post subject: Re: [Weapons] Issues with Plasma weapons
PostPosted: Wed Aug 10, 2011 8:49 pm 
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keeping zombo's (accurate) comments in mind and discounting lance, I'd like to see 30cm AP4+/AT5+ for Plasma Cannons. AP5+/AT4+ could work too, honestly, depending on whether we feel Plasma Cannons are supposed to represent an expansion of the Demolisher's primarily anti-infantry role, or an added anti-armor punch at the close ranges it is designed for.


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