The Everyone you keep stating is only backed up by the stat's from UK epic tournaments, and then only tournaments that count towards the Epic-UK championship. All in all a very narrow view, and no matter what derisions are made here will not change as Epic-UK have just completed their Marine review.

Players want to use Titan's, they are cool. The titans that work best with Marines are Warhounds, especially at 3,000 points. Forcing players to only have 1 warhound max in a list may be ok at 3000 but is harsh at 5000. So the players that want titans stop playing marines and go play another race that isn't so limited.

If you want to play an all marine force go for it. I've done it a tournaments, but don't try and use the championship stat's as you main reason for changing warhounds.

its not just the eUK tournament lists though
its pretty much every other marine list i've seen in the last year and a half atleast

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EUK stats are a handy resource.

Dave, nones saying warhounds should be 0-1 total. The most radical view (which I do not agree with) is that "lone" warhounds should be 0-1. I don't agree with that because if there is a balance issue there, then a limit is only papering over the cracks, and not actually addressing the problem head on.

And if there is no problem, there's no need to do anything in the first place anyway. The problem may well more be that analogue units that would fill a similar role (land raiders, predators) are just too expensive, rather than warhounds being so cheap. I'd still take em at 300pts though! ;-)

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Oh and the real Titan problem is still that warlord titans aren't worth taking ;-p

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I agree with you on that and am still looking forward to the AMTL joining the UK tournament scene one day.

i dunno, i consider "near every damn army has two warhounds in it" is a bigger misrepresentation of the game universe than "warlords arent as good as they should be"* (although i agree with that in an extent. its not because of the warlord itself so much as the activation restriction having such a big unit imposes. i came up with a thought a while back, but noone seems to have commented on that either)

(*if only because the number of times you see a warlord being not as good is quite small, while you see warhounds being in nearly every army nearly every time you play)

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Mind you, Marines seem get a Warhound under a better SR, under a better strike force, and somehow feel they do not need to pay any extra for it...

Things that make you go hmmmm.....

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Reavers have been boosted and generally seem to be acceptable, while Warlords are apparently more of a liability than an asset in the Marine list.

So the contention we are debating is:-

"Singlton Warhounds are overused in the Space Marine list"

E&C is correct that the EUK stats are quoted because they are a very reliable source and provide a very good basis for measuring whether the various EUK army lists are balanced - and by inference whether the lists used elsewhere are balanced under the same conditions (terrain, blind list selection, etc).
While I am sure we would all love to get a more "globally" objective view, there are no other comparable stats (unless someone has been holding out)***.

So, are there any other potential options to be debated here apart from

1. Leave Singlton Warhounds unchanged
2. Increase the cost of Singlton Warhounds (to 300 initially?)
3. Impose a 0-1 restriction on Singlton Warhounds
4. Ban the use of Singlton Warhounds altogether

Finally, no-one is suggesting that any changes will occur overnight (rather over years if past practice is followed). However IF the Net-ERC and the MArine AC ultimately agree on a given change, I would hope that the EUK group would strongly consider amending their lists accordingly. But from Dobbsy's posts, we are no-where near that position yet.



*** While Mephiston will almost certainly not consider hosting stats from outside the EUK championship, I am sure he would help anyone who wanted to take up the challenge - and this would be a really usefull tool to support these debates. (and debates in other lists etc)

in practice, with a few exceptions, EUK lists have tended to generally follow the direction of travel in NetEA lists, with a lag of a few years.

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ok, so what are the options:

1) do nothing, the Warhound is fine
2) up the points to 300pts - unlikely to make people who take Warhounds take fewer of them
3) make singletons 0-1, pairs unlimited - likely to result in lots of lists which previously had Warhounds to have 1 single Warhound
4) put Thunderhawks in the 1/3 allies+aircraft section - people who take 2 single Warhounds will still take 2 single Warhounds, only now they have to choose between 1 T'hawk + 1 T'bolt, or 2 T'hawks/no T'bolts, or no T'hawks/2 T'bolts
5) reduce the allies to 1/4 - which won't reduce Warhound use and will pretty much wipe out any Reaver or Warlord lists
[i[edit, thanks GlynG[/i]
6) remove the option for single warhounds entirely, a la Revenants - would obviously remove single Warhounds and probably provoke an uproar

You missed out option 6 - remove the option for single Warhounds entirely while leaving the option to take them in pairs (like Revenants). It was Dobbsy's proposal from the start of the thread and it has a lot going for it.


It occurred to me something like that would be good for here too, should any of the regulars fancy taking on the time and commitment. It would help testing and balancing and perhaps encourage a bit more playtesting as the results of games could have more effect years ahead.

Extra thought - could the recording and displaying all together of lists used be somehow done through that good online epic list builder site? Or is that a bit much to ask from it?

Probably, but it should be fairly easy for someone else to write a parser that'd read in the plain text version of said lists that would allow for later searching.

thanks, forgot that one

In our turneys in Germany The use of Warhounds is a 50/50 split i guess.
Usually i field a single Warhound with my Salamanders but only because i really like the model and i haven't painted up a second one. It usually ends up destroyed doing nothing game changing.
In the last turney a Space Marine player fielded a Warhound Pair.
The only other Space Marine player besides the one with the pair (his first show up on our turneys) and me doesn't own any Warhound models (yet).

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