Here is where my gut feelings have me right now. I know they are probably more changes than some would like to see if they're implemented but i feel that these working together might actually make a lot more things viable and reduce the cookie-cutter somewhat.

That said, it's not an absolute choice just yet, however, as I'd like to discuss whether they can all work together or just the armour and Tactical ideas. Personally, I think they might work as one but I'll leave it to discussion to see what comes up.

Thanks guys.

1/ Land Raider 325 points - a conservative start but I would like to see it drop to 300 if the Warhound proposal below is not implemented.

2/ Vindicator - 225 points. 50 point upgrade. A +5 cm movement would be good for the upgrades but I'm still trying to decide if it could work alongside the price drop. This is a late idea but what about a 3+FF instead? Would it be warranted? It's an awfully big shell....

3/ Predators - flat 250 (FF3+ for Pred D incorporated after the discussion thread for the preds a while back) - I want to be conservative with this change (i.e. no 225 for 4 D's) even knowing that there's a good chance they don't equal a WH. Plus, it's just easier to price them the same to start with.

4/ Tacticals - confirm 275 and LR upgrade option

5/ Warhounds - 550 - a pair with no discount. You still get to use them but you don't get 2 pairs. I'm still debating on 500 though but I'm siding with 550 more atm. EDIT - No singletons available for purchase at all.

These next options are possibly for a later date but I wanted to put them out there for this discussion.

Thunderbolts 175 - proposed by Dave Thomas a while back and in league with the Warhound change so you won't get 3 squadrons (basically a +1 activation boost) and your Warhounds.

Warlord 825? - Mainly as an option to still allow 1 Thunderbolt Sdn in addition to a Warlord choice. This idea is a bit new but I remember TRC asking to keep the option for both viable when the TBs were discussed a while back and it seems fair to me. Also E&C proposed the idea recently.

Scouts - add the LSS for testing at the very least. No price change but possible removal of the Razorback but I'm still undecided on that. This is all still in my "possibly don't bother" basket even though it's a more fluffy option and I like the idea.

My immediate gut reaction is - "too many changes to work simultaneously, and too far too fast".

Also, are you banning singlton Warhounds altogether? If so, the 50 point hike to Warhound pairs is unwarranted - it is the singltons that are abusive / unfluffy, not the pairs which are rarely if ever used.

That said, how do you propose to test these proposals objectively, especially as there are so many entrenched positions?

Well I can't force people to trial it but I'll be trialling them myself as much as possible and I'd hope many others would too. If needs be, trial one change at a time in your playing groups.... <shrug>

The first 5 don't add up to that many changes and minimal adjustments at that(perhaps excluding the WH change). The second part of the proposals, like I said, can wait to a later date but I think if anyone wants to trial them alongside then please do so and I'll sing your praises.

Not all the mentioned formations go in everyone's lists anyway from what I can see.

Bring along the 'Ignore Cover' weaponry of course.

On a topic note. Interesting and as Ginger says that's a lot of changes.

Tim, when you say "interesting," do you mean it's "interesting-possible" or "interesting-stuff that!"

I'm largely happy to test those changes.

Things I don't like:
- raising the cost of warhound pairs (they are fine at 500 IMO)
- ff3+ vindicators (not needed)
- 30cm speed vindicators (not needed)

I think 800 may be a better price point for the warlord, but 825 is a good start.

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Currently doing a plastic scenery kickstarter

Gotcha. Re: WHs - the aim is to reduce the option of too many WHs but if the Thunderbolt change goes in 500 could still work. You'll still end up with 2 WH formations for your 1000 points of course w/o TBs.

Re: vindicators these are just options I'm looking for further discussion on, but points all taken.


Baby steps is a better start on the big fella.

Other than the warhound's I could live with them. Still not sure most of the changes are required.

Thunderbolts and warlords could change price in this list and not other lists. It's all about context.

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Currently doing a plastic scenery kickstarter

You're pretty unlikely to play against the NetEA marine list so that's okay. :-)

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Currently doing a plastic scenery kickstarter

When I exercise my muscles and they hurt, that's the feeling of them growing larger :-p

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Currently doing a plastic scenery kickstarter

I am willing to try the proposed changes, however I do not believe the Tacticals need a LR transport choice.

Then again, you are not going to please everyone.

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