Did you seriously just say that?

If a player wants to play Marines in the way they commonly end up fighting, he should have to use a variant list to do so?

_________________
The Apocrypha of Skaros 1.1
Rogue Trader Expedition 0.4
The Horus Heresy 0.5
Night Lords 0.1
My Trade Thread

Obviously I did...

_________________
Just call me Steve.

NetEA Rules Chair
NetEA FAQ

Want to play Iron Warriors in Epic Armageddon? Click HERE
Some of my Armies.
My Hobby site.

So what you're saying is that the basic Marine list should not let you play Marines.

_________________
The Apocrypha of Skaros 1.1
Rogue Trader Expedition 0.4
The Horus Heresy 0.5
Night Lords 0.1
My Trade Thread

well, to play devil's avocado, you don't have to take Warhounds with your Marines. A friend of mine doesn't and he still plays competitively. Someone else I know doesn't and he does ok to, even though he's a squirt.

In fact, this whole discussion may, as someone's already been noted, be being skewed heavily by the EpicUK tournament scene/ local metagame. If that is the case, then it may be more of an issue for the closed EpicUK SM team to look at than NetEA

No, no. The man just quite literally said that if you want to play a Marine-only force, you should use the BT list.

Now, maybe he didn't intend this, but the way I read that is that if you don't want to use Titans and/or Navy, you should be using the BT list.

I would point out (as others have) that the worst case scenario is that we will fix a problem that some people may not need fixed for them.

_________________
The Apocrypha of Skaros 1.1
Rogue Trader Expedition 0.4
The Horus Heresy 0.5
Night Lords 0.1
My Trade Thread

Might be time to have a bit of a rest mate.
This is obviously getting a bit silly at the moment...

_________________
Just call me Steve.

NetEA Rules Chair
NetEA FAQ

Want to play Iron Warriors in Epic Armageddon? Click HERE
Some of my Armies.
My Hobby site.

Hey. You're the one claiming that if you want to play just Marines you shouldn't use the Marine list...

_________________
The Apocrypha of Skaros 1.1
Rogue Trader Expedition 0.4
The Horus Heresy 0.5
Night Lords 0.1
My Trade Thread

Ok guys let it pass. This isn't helping in any way. Take a breath and remember that we're talking about little metal toys first

Cheers

I'm not mad. I'm incredulous. Big difference.

_________________
The Apocrypha of Skaros 1.1
Rogue Trader Expedition 0.4
The Horus Heresy 0.5
Night Lords 0.1
My Trade Thread

Correct.

I think restrictions (0-x) is a big mistake.
I believe a small price rise is the way to go to fix the Marine + ally mainstay issue for the short term.

For those that it does not effect (as they never see it as an issue) well, there should be no issue.

_________________
Frogbear is responsible for...
Previous World Eaters
Previous Emperor's Children
Previous Death Guard
Previous Imperial Fists
Previous Chaos Squats

the problem with a slight price raise is that it won't change anything, except someone will drop a Chaplain somewhere to account for the extra 50 points it takes to bring two Warhounds.

Now you're talking. They are cool, they are fun, they are fast. If I wanted games without titans I'd play 40K. Titans are a draw card for Epic.

Would it upset the applecart if I said Marines would be more fun to play if the Warhounds blew up on a critical, lost the ability to recharge shields, and dropped to 250pts? Probably






In context, Onyx was saying that if you want to play a Marine only force that is a Marine only force soley for the reason that it refuses to coordinate with others, the best justification would be to play Black Templars. Their 40k version has special rules like 'Abhor the Witch' that prevent them from working with forces including psykers etc.
If you aren't playing BT, you have no 'fluff' reason not to include other forces as allies, unless you created them for yourself. I very much doubt he was saying you can't use pure marines unless you are BT.

Hopefully that helsp build a bridge of understanding

True this.

Personally, I don't see the problem. The standard Marine list is representative of a more combined approach than say - Black templars (My Templars has predators and LRC in it) and people are free to pick and choose what they want in their list. If they want to use a combined arms list then that's fine. Whilst 2 warhounds is a good selection, it's hardly game breaking.

If people want to play a good ground pounding marine army, then there's the Scions list and updated EpicUK Dark Angels lists that are perfectly good.

Each army chosen represents a person's individual wants and playstyle - it's already quite unfluffy to have a marine army pairing off against an equally sized army across the table (What with the whole shock troopers thing they've got going on. If epic was representative of actual battles the casualty figures matched against recruitment rates would see the IoM run out of Space Marines by now, lol). I'm loath to see people curtailed in this way - sometimes you just want to play with the cool toys. I like to take a Warlock Titan wherever I can because it's cool and big stompy titans are what Epic is about for me.

In fact if we all had to play by fluff - how often certain armies are seen, who their common enemies are and what their battle force represents then we'd be rolling 2 D6 and on a 2-6 the match up would be Guard vs LatD, a 7 -11 Guard vs Orks and on a 2 or a 12 the players are free to choose one of the other armies to play with. It's not beyond the realms of inconceivable that large marine operations would be backed up by Titan and Navy support occassionally (Especially on Armaggedon) and that's what the marine list gives you the OPTION to represent.

people are largely not suggesting that warhounds be removed entirely, (which is a pity, because its a lovely strawman y'all have been building, and it will be such a pity to waste it)

they're saying that "occasionally" supported by titan and navy units should not be represented by 99% of lists having them present.
as it stands, there are more than three times as many warhounds showing up in marine lists as there are land raiders. givenland raiders come in packs of 4, thats a serious damn problem with the aesthetic of the marine list.
i dont have an issue with someone taking two warhounds (or even 4) in a marine list. i do have an issue with EVERYONE doing it ALL THE TIME.

the codex marine list should represent the most common method of engagement for a codex marine chapter in an epic scale. this means it should have access to thunderhawks, but should not be virtually required to take them. it should be able to represent a decent ground-pounder force, or a decent air assault force. it should be well suited to making a mixed arms combination of both.
for purely air assault lists, there should be a variant (which should include more options for that theme, but the core list should be able to build a pure airborne assault army if needed)
for purely ground based lists, there should be a variant (which would again, include more options on that theme, but the core list should be able to put up a decent ground-pounder list aswell)

marines are basically the posterchilds for self reliance. a marine force should not be represented most frequently and most effectively, with a minor contingent of adeptus mechanicus allies. both sides of this equasion are insular jerks who dont get along well, and neither side commit to a conflict lightly. imperial guard cant buy a thunderhawk worth of marines (for the record, that would be cool, i like the crusade list for that purpose) and marines shouldnt be able to buy 2 warhound without other AMTL support.
but they can, and i'm ok with that
except when its the default position, and not a "we engage in lightning quick destabilisation attacks, rapidly assessing and assaulting vulnerabilities in the enemy lines when they appear... but only when we've also got some friendly warhounds in the area." (or is it "the AMTL secretly have deployed two solo surviving warhounds from seperate warhound pairs, in every battlefield and potential battlefield in the galaxy, so that when marines make an assault, they can spring into action to assist them")

_________________
~Every Tool Is A Weapon, If You Hold It Right~